There's another vaccine! And we've got 60 million shots! And it's made here!

[HelloThereMeHearties]

And it's effective against the new UK variant!

And it will really wind the EU up!!!

Novavax has passed its stage three trial, now hopefully the MHRA will approve it!!!

@Ihatefish sorry but the whole ‘if I get knocked over by a bus it’s counted as a covid death’ was debunked months ago. I thought it was common knowledge but obviously not!

Article on how initially deaths were being overstated (note it’s from 6 months ago)
www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/analysis-why-englands-covid-19-death-toll-is-wrong-but-not-by-much

Article on how deaths definition was redefined in August to a tighter definition and how the deaths went down at that point by circa 5,000.

www.cebm.net/covid-19/public-health-england-death-data-revised/

The 100k deaths figure is accurate. It is not ‘more like 25,000’ which is nonsense. If you get hit by a bus you are not going to be recorded as a covid death

Hope that helps. I should say there are tons of articles on this if you are interested in reading further

@Hopeisnotastrategy looking forward to reading the articles from you saying deaths are more like 25k and that being hit by a bus means you’re reported as a covid death

Shaniac

" A thread celebrating britain creating a 2nd effective vaccine means we want everyone to die. Cool story bro."

The composition of the scientific team creating the Oxford vaccine was multinational.

Of the 383 individuals directly working on the vaccine, at least 68 are nationals from the countries that are members of the European Union or single market, and at least 32 are from other countries around the world.

@EileenGC

the eu is spectacularly failing its people right now

Funny, I'm an EU citizen living in a EU country that receives a lot of bashing on here, and I don't feel like they're failing us.

Like other PP said, both the EU, the UK and every country in the world has done mistakes and also achieved good things.

I feel protected where I live. There are strong measures in place, respected by most citizens. Because we (mostly) trust our government. Our incidence is under 100, in the middle of winter. Our hospitals are not overwhelmed. Life is fairly normal, even with lockdown.

I have a roof over my head. If this had happened a year earlier, when I was still living in England, I would now be homeless and unable to afford food. The country I live in has made sure I'm still being paid each month.

I can still work, because even non-essential industries have been giving the financial support they need to keep going. I'm in performing arts and everything in the UK is shut. 'Too unsafe, and we're in a lockdown'. No it's not unsafe, we too are in a lockdown but I still work with 100 other people without any social distancing each day, and it's perfectly safe. There just needs to be millions of pounds of investment in these 'non-essential' industries. The economy keeps going, people and their mental health keep going, and we're not headed for a major economical recession.

Vaccines - yes, they could go faster and organise it better. But, I feel safe knowing they haven't rushed into a mass vaccination programme without triple-checking everything and making sure they have enough doses to vaccinate people as per the trials schedule, instead of delaying the second dose with absolutely no scientific data backing up this decision.

We have less deaths than the UK, less people have lost their jobs, and the handling of the pandemic has been so much better. UK is vaccinating faster and that's also amazing. This is not a competition though, we shouldn't be celebrating the failures of other countries.

Great post. Amen to the last paragraph.

@FitzsimmonsMarvel

There you go, the Oxford University Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine good enough for you?

www.cebm.net/covid-19/why-no-one-can-ever-recover-from-covid-19-in-england-a-statistical-anomaly/

Do feel free to apologise.

Excellent! What fantastic work from our scientists. And from the grateful and proud reaction from the country, it would appear that the people weren’t that sick of experts after all... funny that.🤷‍♀️

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@Ihatefish sorry but the whole ‘if I get knocked over by a bus it’s counted as a covid death’ was debunked months ago. I thought it was common knowledge but obviously not!

Article on how initially deaths were being overstated (note it’s from 6 months ago)
www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/analysis-why-englands-covid-19-death-toll-is-wrong-but-not-by-much

Article on how deaths definition was redefined in August to a tighter definition and how the deaths went down at that point by circa 5,000.

www.cebm.net/covid-19/public-health-england-death-data-revised/

The 100k deaths figure is accurate. It is not ‘more like 25,000’ which is nonsense. If you get hit by a bus you are not going to be recorded as a covid death

Hope that helps. I should say there are tons of articles on this if you are interested in reading further

@Hopeisnotastrategy looking forward to reading the articles from you saying deaths are more like 25k and that being hit by a bus means you’re reported as a covid death[/quote]
Meh. You can prove anything with facts.

Come on @Hopeisnotastrategy, let's hear it.

*But what if company A just has an order for 100 loaves, and company B has a contract for 100 loaves with a clause saying ‘so long as production allows’.
Do you still think they should get the same, even though they have different contracts?

Isn’t that the point?
there is a clause in the EU contract which isn’t in the UK contract. That they are not technically in breach of the contract with the EU, while they would be in breach of the UK one.
That’s my understanding.

I’m sure the lawyers will be all over it anyhow.

And going back to your ability, even if company B did have a point, they need to take it up with the suppliers, not company A*

EXACTLY.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars they are taking it up with the suppliers. The suppliers are producing the vaccine in U.K. factories and the EU state their contracts include the U.K. factories and also that the ‘best efforts’ clause (not a if production allows clause) is a standard contract clause not used under these circumstances.

I haven’t seen the contracts so I don’t know exactly what they say but if the EU are correct in what they are saying then they have a point in my opinion.

This whole ‘stealing vaccines out of U.K. shopping baskets’ thing is not what it’s about. It’s about whether supplies produces in U.K. factories should only go to U.K. hence EU have a shortfall as the production issue was in a EU plant or if the EU contract refers to all factories. And also how this works when the reverse happened ( EU produced vaccines of 4 million went to the U.K. when U.K. plants were having production issues)

Only the company, the EU, the U.K. and the contracts know what’s happening and it is complex

Talking about the EU stealing vaccines and the shame faced gloating here is awful and not true.

@thedancingbear read link above.

Britain does badly compared to other countries: "God this country is shameful. Look how much better other places are doing. Why aren't we doing that? It's all because of brexit/Boris/gammon'.

Britain does well compared to other countries: 'oh god this is shameful. Its not a competition, this flag waving is because of brexit/Boris/gammon'

This is sad but true. Any celebration of success is clear evidence of spite or bigotry, it couldn't possibly be relief that this might be the light at the end of the tunnel.

[quote Hopeisnotastrategy]@FitzsimmonsMarvel

There you go, the Oxford University Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine good enough for you?

www.cebm.net/covid-19/why-no-one-can-ever-recover-from-covid-19-in-england-a-statistical-anomaly/

Do feel free to apologise.[/quote]
Disclaimer: the article has not been peer-reviewed; it should not replace individual clinical judgement, and the sources cited should be checked. The views expressed in this commentary represent the views of the authors and not necessarily those of the host institution, the NHS, the NIHR, or the Department of Health and Social Care. The views are not a substitute

This is just some crank shite that happens to have found its way onto a reputable website. It's barely literate ('over-exaggerate' ffs). It also doesn't say what you think it does.

Come back with something grown up and people might listen to you.

Talking about the EU stealing vaccines and the shame faced gloating here is awful and not true

Disagree- this is exactly what is going on

People in the EU deserve to be protected against this horrible virus as much as British people do. It's not a competition

I agree completely, but as said, if EU citizens have an issue with how the EU have handled it then it's for them to take it up with their leaders

That doesn't mean we can't share any "spare" vaccines and hopefully we will when the time's right for us ... and as also said, it could be a pretty useful thing to have in reserve during the ongoing negotiations

Oh, and before anyone says "it's about people deals!!", let's not pretend they wouldn't do the very same to us

Er @Hopeisnotastrategy if you’d bothered to read my post you would see that deaths were redefined in August so your article in July is based on the previous definition of deaths which was overstated and reduced deaths by 5,000 once the new definition came in. The 100k is based on the new definition. Hope you are better informed now and will discontinue spouting falsehoods on public forums.

@AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter how exactly are they stealing vaccines then? Are you another who has seen both contacts?

@Hopeisnotastrategy Do feel free to apologise to posters for misleading them!

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars they are taking it up with the suppliers. The suppliers are producing the vaccine in U.K. factories and the EU state their contracts include the U.K. factories and also that the ‘best efforts’ clause (not a if production allows clause) is a standard contract clause not used under these circumstances.

I haven’t seen the contracts so I don’t know exactly what they say but if the EU are correct in what they are saying then they have a point in my opinion.

This whole ‘stealing vaccines out of U.K. shopping baskets’ thing is not what it’s about. It’s about whether supplies produces in U.K. factories should only go to U.K. hence EU have a shortfall as the production issue was in a EU plant or if the EU contract refers to all factories. And also how this works when the reverse happened ( EU produced vaccines of 4 million went to the U.K. when U.K. plants were having production issues)

Only the company, the EU, the U.K. and the contracts know what’s happening and it is complex

Talking about the EU stealing vaccines and the shame faced gloating here is awful and not true.[/quote]
So why are the EU threatening to block exports to the UK? Which, if what I read in the independent is correct, includes exports of the Pfizer vaccine?
That has absolutely nothing to do with the AZ contract.

It’s just foot stamping and spite.

@thedancingbear

The UK signed the contract 3 months ahead of the EU and licensed it much earlier, as well as the UK government financing some of the research at Oxford university. I think this gives the UK far more rights to vaccine supplies than the EU who are definitely throwing their toys out of the pram.

Please explain how you have reached this conclusion. It doesn't represent any interpretation of contract law i've encountered. Earlier-signed contracts do not, as a rule, trump later ones.

The CEO of AZ says this about the contract. He clearly knows more about it than you. The 3 month earlier signing by the UK is not the only factor in contract law.

Reports of legal action against the company — potentially from Italy, as well as calls for a European-level lawsuit — for not meeting its contracted deliveries, didn't appear to faze Soriot, with the CEO insisting he was confident in the wording of the company's agreement.

The EU “contract is very clear: Our commitment is, I am quoting, ‘our best effort,’” he said. It was drawn up this way because AstraZeneca and its partner Oxford University had already signed a deal with the U.K. government for 100 million doses, and was committed to delivering them, while the EU deal for 400 million doses was signed three months later, with the bloc wanting them to be shipped concurrently.

I posted this earlier in the thread, but sharing it again. Article in The Spectator about the AZ/EU contract issue.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-vaccine-row-shows-the-eu-doesn-t-understand-contract-law

I have to laugh at some of the comments saying it's up to Britain to help the EU. We're talking about some of the most prosperous countries in the world here. Germany, Denmark, Sweden for example. Even poorer countries like Bulgaria are still quite wealthy by international standards.

Sure, it might be in mutual self-interest for GB to 'share' vaccines with the EU, certainly with ROI, but it's not Britain's fault that the EU were tardy in their procurement and approval processes and that their lawyers don't seem to understand contract law. That's on them.

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@Ihatefish sorry but the whole ‘if I get knocked over by a bus it’s counted as a covid death’ was debunked months ago. I thought it was common knowledge but obviously not!

Article on how initially deaths were being overstated (note it’s from 6 months ago)
www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/analysis-why-englands-covid-19-death-toll-is-wrong-but-not-by-much

Article on how deaths definition was redefined in August to a tighter definition and how the deaths went down at that point by circa 5,000.

www.cebm.net/covid-19/public-health-england-death-data-revised/

The 100k deaths figure is accurate. It is not ‘more like 25,000’ which is nonsense. If you get hit by a bus you are not going to be recorded as a covid death

Hope that helps. I should say there are tons of articles on this if you are interested in reading further

@Hopeisnotastrategy looking forward to reading the articles from you saying deaths are more like 25k and that being hit by a bus means you’re reported as a covid death[/quote]
Well that’s a much better argument but still doesn’t make the original poster a conspiracy theorist. It just means that there is contradictory evidence to that person’s viewpoint.

[quote CaveMum]I posted this earlier in the thread, but sharing it again. Article in The Spectator about the AZ/EU contract issue.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-vaccine-row-shows-the-eu-doesn-t-understand-contract-law[/quote]
I read that@CaveMum. Really interesting. Thanks for posting.

I don’t think this is about U.K. leaving for EU

I think it sort of is though. I don't see the EU demanding that AZ vaccines from the SII are sent to the EU to fulfil orders. We've only just sorted a trade deal, and the EU are under pressure to show that leaving is a really bad idea.

It all depends on the contracts. Hopefully AZ can redact commercially sensitive bits and publish the rest.

I have been shocked by the unprofessional behaviour of some EU officials.

@thedancingbear the author is Professor of Medicine and Pharmacology at the University of East Anglia, so if you don't mind I'll take his word for it rather than yours.

Why do some people have to be so rude? There were actually some interesting discussions going on here before you and @FitzsimmonsMarvel turned up.

As to the 25,000 I'll try and find it, I know I've read it this week but I've read a very wide range of international articles over the last few days. But hey, why bother trying to establish facts when you can just go on the internet and slag other people off and call that an argument? 🤷‍♀️