Why isn't more being done to make schools safer?

[pinkpip100]

I've just come across this website and campaign: schools.forhealth.org/risk-reduction-strategies-for-reopening-schools/
It's US based, but the strategies seem pretty universal. Given how important almost everyone agrees it is to enable children to go back to school as soon as possible, and to prevent future school closures wherever possible, why isn't there any investment into this from our government? The sections on healthy buildings and modifying attendance (through rotas, blended learning etc) seem particularly relevant, along with mask wearing in classrooms. I genuinely don't understand why this isn't being prioritised, campaigned for by groups like Us for Them etc. And why aren't the opposition parties pushing for answers on this? Am I missing something?

[quote mrsm43s]@Fortherosesjoni70

The ONS data has not been manipulated. It's about the only bloody robust bit of data relating to CV and schools that hasn't been manipulated to suit an agenda. It is transparent and fully available to be interrogated. It is good reliable data, that has a robust methodology and follows protocols. Please look at the full release, the dataset, and the accompanying statistical bulletin for full details if you are still in doubt. Anyone with even a basic understanding of data analysis will see that it they take the time to read the full release.[/quote]
Maybe manipulated is the wrong word. It was taken over too long a time so looking at the result dont give a true picture of when the pandemic was at its height,
Therefore it was easy to say that teachers weren't affected.

Schools are safe.

Our Prime Minister keeps saying so.

(Usually before, during, and after closing them because putting a thousand people together inside the same building 5 days a week is an obvious driver of community transmission.)

It's homeschooling that is a terrible danger to children.

I imagine the government will have to outlaw it after this since it's such a risk to children's physical and mental health.

@Bing12

They don’t care.

The cost of making them safe is greater than the cost of x number of children losing family members.

They’re doing it for the kids. They’re doing it for mental health. Rubbish. They’re motivated by nothing other than 💰.

It's not in their economic interests. Funding to schools has been cut year on year. Expectations from the DfE increase year on year, sometimes in a very unrealistic manner. It's easier to blame someone else for not doing all they can even when they don't have the resources to do what is asked of them.

The government haven't done anything to make schools safer because for almost a year we parents have let them get away with pretending that Schools Open/Schools Closed are the only options.

Schools Safer has been very firmly kept off the table.

But nothing needs to be done differently, because despite your anecdata, the actual data shows that schools are safe when open. They are closed when it is not safe for them to open. The government have actually kept teachers safe (I suspect more by luck than judgement) by closing schools when they have. The important thing is that community infection rates fall to manageable levels before schools are reopened. Once they are, it is safe to open schools as previously.

But infection levels were at manageable levels at the start of September. It's not just anecdata, you just have to look at the rates of infection amongst school aged children as the term progressed (initially secondary, but by December it was clear in primary age groups too). Also look at school attendance data for the Autumn term. Plus various scientists have agreed that schools are a 'vector of transmission', so there is no way they don't contribute to wider community rates and the 'R' number.
What we need is a long term solution, not a repeat of the Autumn term.

Back in the first lockdown, SAGE recommended part time /rota opening of schools. This was ignored and instead they went for an all or nothing approach in September.

Schools have demonstrated that they will adapt to any guidance and 'make it work'.

I think that schools should have had the opportunity in the summer term to fine tune their part time / blended / rota school system. Surely parents would prefer their children going to school for some of the time than be at home all the time.

With part time you would have much less social contact, easier social distancing, less impact of bubbles bursting, dedicated time for deep cleaning, opportunities to pick up on any concerns in person, some social contact for children, access to more outside play for children who have no garden at home, among other benefits.

Whilst there would be challenges to working parents surely this is less than the impact of long term school closures or bubbles bursting at very short notice.

I’ve said this all along since the summer.

Measures should have been put in place since September to allow schools to stay open.

I would like to see children at least 2m apart, one desk each. Class sizes halved, like when some year groups went back in the summer. That felt safe. Plus regular testing and teachers vaccinated. Plus enforcement of isolation rules and fining of parents who refuse to comply with these.

The government should be prioritising freeing up space to accommodate extra classes, and recruiting people to assist with this on a practical level.

I wouldn’t even mind 3 day weeks or mornings only to avoid staying for lunches. Anything would be better than this.

Infection rates in secondary school kids outstripped that of the rest of the population pointing to a major problem with transmission in secondary schools (reinforced by the fact that they have fallen during school closures).

And SAGE reported at Christmas that children were 7 times more likely to be the first case in a household (so they were bringing it home) and more likely to transmit it to other family members than adults.

And that is why schools open with no mitigation measures are unsafe for the country and were closed by the government.

Thank you @noblegiraffe that was the ONS graph I was thinking of but couldn't find it to link to.

shelding, they can do blended learning, some days in and some days off. Many colleges already do this with no problems, its the perfect balance as they get to see their friends but the campus is not as busy and there are more choices of larger classrooms.
My nephews college does this to great success why they cant do it for secondary is beyond me!

@mrsm43s But I think the measures already in place mean that schools are safe.

Have you been in a secondary school during the Autumn term? What measures do you think are in place out of interest?

Have you seen the information @noblegiraffe has posted above?

What does,
'Make schools safe mean'?
What do you want them to do?

What do you want them to do?

This was the link I originally posted:

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=schools.forhealth.org/risk-reduction-strategies-for-reopening-schools/

And pp has also shared the NEU's list.

And the title states 'safer', not 'safe'.

Stop scaremongering, and just accept the facts that teachers are at low risk of death when compared to other people of the same age in other occupations. This is GOOD NEWS for teachers, schools and ultimately our children.

It's not death I was concerned with.

It was my longer term health. I teach and I am CV.
The government told me it was perfectly safe for me to go to school from September to do my job as normal. I wouldn't need (and shouldn't be ) to wear a mask. The children wouldn't need to socially distance from me or each other. If I was worried the government claimed I could open the windows.
So I returned to work. I taught over 250 young children a week, as per my job.

Come October and I caught covid. The most likely place I caught it was school - 3/4 of the staff ended up with it, several parents and children too. I didn't come into close contact with staff - rarely another adult came in my room staff room wasn't being used, masks in if outside and always 2m apart from other adults. I was rushed to the hospital where I needed treatment, as I was at a very real risk of having a stroke or a heart attack. I was off work for 7 weeks and returned - probably far too quickly but I felt guilty to still be away and others having to cover my role. it's been 3.5 months and I'm still not right. I now need long term medication in addition to my previous medication. My new health issues also make me vulnerable - so that's a double whammy. I'm still shattered, I get pains in my chest and get breathless on exertion, I have insomnia and brain fog. At least the coughing has stopped and through steroid injections I've managed to get on top of the pain from my arthritis - covid meant I couldn't take my medication for a while and I had a huge flare up.

So yes, I might be at a low risk of death - but the longer term issues (and women of a certain age seem to be most likely to get this and many teachers, esp primary, fit this demographic) are far more of a concern right now for me,

But I think the measures already in place mean that schools are safe

What are the measures that you think are already in place in schools, pre lockdown?

Schools need more space - if they want to operate safely they need low numbers of children in each classroom, and those classrooms need to be well-ventilated without the children getting too cold. Classrooms themselves may need to be larger to allow adequate social distancing measures to be implemented.
If there are more classrooms then they need more teaching staff.
So there is an urgent need for money for more resources - buildings/covered spaces with adequate ventilation as well as for staff.

I'm not aware of funding for PPE for teachers, or for extra books/pens/pencils etc. that would be needed to ensure that each pupil in a classroom has their own items that they do not share with each other.

@bonbonours

Measures such as part time school, having half the class in at a time for half the day or half the week would cause problems but would at least allow all kids some classroom time but with the ability to spread out more safely. Also everyone needs to stop stressing about kids in masks, most kids really don't care.

This is what our schools have done (not in the UK). It's been fine. Sure, my kids would rather be in full-time, but they realise that's not happening, and part-time is better than fully online.

They're also fine with wearing masks - again, they'd rather wear masks than not get to go to school.

Our schools have not closed down at all since Sept, and despite there being a fair bit of Covid transmission in the community there has been almost none in the schools.

It does take investment in technology to make it work. I remain baffled by the fact that the UK government still has not funded technology that would enable teachers and students to learn from home effectively. It's been nearly a year - that's a lot of education to lose.

@Abraxan

But I think the measures already in place mean that schools are safe

What are the measures that you think are already in place in schools, pre lockdown?

I asked @mrsm43s that exact same question and they have also refused to answer me. I can only assume it’s because it’s utter bollocks....

@WeatherwaxOn

Schools need more space - if they want to operate safely they need low numbers of children in each classroom, and those classrooms need to be well-ventilated without the children getting too cold. Classrooms themselves may need to be larger to allow adequate social distancing measures to be implemented. If there are more classrooms then they need more teaching staff. So there is an urgent need for money for more resources - buildings/covered spaces with adequate ventilation as well as for staff.

I'm not aware of funding for PPE for teachers, or for extra books/pens/pencils etc. that would be needed to ensure that each pupil in a classroom has their own items that they do not share with each other.

How long is that going to take? That can all this be done, the logistics, planning, costing, assembling of these building projects of every school in the country.

The nightingales worked because they were an adaptable multiuse space in the first place. Most junior schools for instance are tiny by comparison, quite rigid space.
I don't believe it's realistic, once the vaccine takes hold then a semblance of normality can return. Patience.

Wow, sorry I'd not responded, I've been at work and not noticed this thread moving on..

The measures in place in my children's secondary school were:
Masks in corridors, sanctions if not worn, consistently applied.
Windows open
Teachers in taped off area 2m away from closest desk
Work (and homework) handed in electronically and marked/returned electronically.
Online parents evenings/parent teacher meetings/pta meetings
Clubs restricted to single year group only
Assemblies restricted to single year group only and no singing
Year bubbles, no mixing of children between years
No sharing of resources
School zoned, with zones allocated to just one year group.
Teachers moving between zones, children stay in zone.
Sports fixtures against other schools cancelled
No contact sports
No swimming
Staggered start and leave times for year groups
School buses at half capacity
Individual music tuition moved online
Orchestra cancelled
School production cancelled
Hand gels outside each classroom and children encouraged to use
Reminders re handwashing and social distancing
Zero tolerance of children in school with symptoms
All lessons also simultaneously streamed remotely if any child at home self isolating
Increased cleaning frequency
Wearing in of PE kit on games days so not crammed into changing rooms
Cafeteria staff wearing masks and gloves (think gloves is normal practice in non CV anyway)
And probably a few others that I've forgotten.

Zero cases ever in my children's school, staff or children. SE England.
I feel it was safe, and the school took good precautions to keep it so.

Once community transmission became so high, it was shut (the ultimate mitigating factor), because it was no longer safe, due to the rate of transmission in the community.

Noble giraffes graphs/ info show that rates in children were high in the latter part of the year. Community transmission was high. We needed to shut schools at that point. I've never disputed that.
When rates are down in the community, schools will be safe to reopen again, with mitigation factors such as the ones listed above.

Pretty obvious that secondary schools were a massive issue for transmission.

Laughable the pathetic measures listed above. We know the place pupils spend most of their time is the classroom. No mitigations in there bar an open window if you’re lucky. Secondary teachers know what a joke it was, backed up by the data.

Just a shame that no one listened to us, thinking they knew better.

I think those who say their school had no cases should consider the reality is more likely to be (except perhaps in SW where cases were markedly lower) they had no cases confirmed by tests. This is not the same thing.

Cases confirmed through test and trace are falling - but the ONS random testing is not showing the same scale of drop. This is due to asymptomatic spread.

Schools are not 'safe' if they are hubs of transmission.

@mrsm43s

Wow, sorry I'd not responded, I've been at work and not noticed this thread moving on..

The measures in place in my children's secondary school were:
Masks in corridors, sanctions if not worn, consistently applied.
Windows open
Teachers in taped off area 2m away from closest desk
Work (and homework) handed in electronically and marked/returned electronically.
Online parents evenings/parent teacher meetings/pta meetings
Clubs restricted to single year group only
Assemblies restricted to single year group only and no singing
Year bubbles, no mixing of children between years
No sharing of resources
School zoned, with zones allocated to just one year group.
Teachers moving between zones, children stay in zone.
Sports fixtures against other schools cancelled
No contact sports
No swimming
Staggered start and leave times for year groups
School buses at half capacity
Individual music tuition moved online
Orchestra cancelled
School production cancelled
Hand gels outside each classroom and children encouraged to use
Reminders re handwashing and social distancing
Zero tolerance of children in school with symptoms
All lessons also simultaneously streamed remotely if any child at home self isolating
Increased cleaning frequency
Wearing in of PE kit on games days so not crammed into changing rooms
Cafeteria staff wearing masks and gloves (think gloves is normal practice in non CV anyway)
And probably a few others that I've forgotten.

Zero cases ever in my children's school, staff or children. SE England.
I feel it was safe, and the school took good precautions to keep it so.

Once community transmission became so high, it was shut (the ultimate mitigating factor), because it was no longer safe, due to the rate of transmission in the community.

Noble giraffes graphs/ info show that rates in children were high in the latter part of the year. Community transmission was high. We needed to shut schools at that point. I've never disputed that.
When rates are down in the community, schools will be safe to reopen again, with mitigation factors such as the ones listed above.

You think these are adequate safety measures?

Pupils spend most of their day in class, 2m tape does not protect from an airborne disease.

My school has all these measures too. From the third week in Sept we had year group isolating continuously. Twice we closed fully.

I’m not sure whether I feel angry or sorry for you that you believe these measures are ‘safe’, basically you’ve just listed cancelled clubs and a magic 2m tape.

*My school has all these measures too. From the third week in Sept we had year group isolating continuously. Twice we closed fully.
*
My dc's school was the same - all of the listed measures in place but still multiple isolations and a full closure. My Y9 ds and his whole year group isolated 4 times between Oct and Dec - they were out of school more than they were in. Our area had increasing community levels but not particularly high compared to other areas.