Why isn't more being done to make schools safer?

[pinkpip100]

I've just come across this website and campaign: schools.forhealth.org/risk-reduction-strategies-for-reopening-schools/
It's US based, but the strategies seem pretty universal. Given how important almost everyone agrees it is to enable children to go back to school as soon as possible, and to prevent future school closures wherever possible, why isn't there any investment into this from our government? The sections on healthy buildings and modifying attendance (through rotas, blended learning etc) seem particularly relevant, along with mask wearing in classrooms. I genuinely don't understand why this isn't being prioritised, campaigned for by groups like Us for Them etc. And why aren't the opposition parties pushing for answers on this? Am I missing something?

Us for them actively campaign AGAINST mask wearing, rotas etc

I know - I just don't get it though - surely if they want schools to stay open they should be?

We should have planned for rotas from Oct - Easter. Week in/week out probably. Would have reduced class size and reduced family links.

Having said that, my school has 5 KW bubbles of

As others have said it would involve too much money and although they are happy to give billions to their rich friends for useless things like track and trace, they refuse to spent so much on our child's education.

I would like to see the kids in 1-2 days a week, much smaller groups easier to social distance. Would be better than nothing and give the kids get a chance to see their teacher, some friends etc. In our primary we are lucky to have decent ventilation in most class rooms, could be part of the reason we have had no cases in our school but I know that isn't the case for many schools with older buildings though.

Agree as does everyone I know who has any idea what schools are like.

Teachers and unions been saying this for ages. At secondary we wanted rotas from half term because we knew we could make it work. We could smaller class sizes. Live beam home, or teach and set work for the off time. Children would get higher quality teaching in smaller classes when in. Less disruption. Less unknown who would be out or sent home without notice. But they kept ploughing in with ‘schools are safe’. Spoiler alert: they aren’t.

Usforthem are batshit crazy but seem to have some kind of hotline into number 10. Why they want to fight for schools to go back without safety measure is beyond me.

Anything they could do to make schools safer would just make them horrible places to be. It was bad enough before Christmas when we all had to stay in bubbles and do Christmas with no singing etc.

Children are likely to have access to a better education full time online than they are part time in school. Them spending time in school would help with socialising, but the children wouldn’t be able to pick and choose their friends anyway. Plus, what are we supposed to do with the KWV children who need full time school while we’re working with all the others on rota?

It’s not good for small children to be taught by someone who’s face is covered, we use non verbal communication so often that masks really would take something away and make it much harder to communicate effectively.

There genuinely isn’t that much more that can be done imo.

We’re doing regular lateral flow testing in schools now so that’s an improvement although it doesn’t seem to have been publicised much.

This shows data from times when schools are fully open.
Yes, we asked for schools to be made safer, 32 children queuing to wash hands at one sink, 32 children sitting next to each other all day, eating together and until recently no masks allowed in classes.
I’d like a rota so only 16 at a time- week in, week out maybe? Lots more space for children, more time for each child. Masks for children, other countries expect them from the age of 6- why are British children not able to cope? I am now used to telling the children that I am smiling behind the mask, so they know how I feel (I wear a visor for MFL and SALT work so children can see my mouth).
I’m lucky to have good ventilation, I’m looking forward to warmer weather as teaching in a room with all the windows open when it is -1 is not pleasant and the children are freezing.

@pinkpip100

teachers are not disproportionately at risk.

I think those ONS statistics have been questioned though as they cover quite a long period when schools were closed to most, rather than just Sept-Dec when schools were open fully?

But even if this is the case, it's clear that children can catch and transmit the virus, particularly to those they live with, therefore school transmission must increase community transmission. Surely if we don't get it right in schools then levels will just increase again once they open fully.

The only people questioning those stats are teachers and teaching unions trying desperately to disprove the very methodological sound data, because it doesn't suit their agenda.

The study does not weight for work patterns or work attendance during the period for ANY occupation. To do so just for teachers would be to manipulate the data unfairly to try to prove something that doesn't exist. Yes, teachers were not at work fully throughout the period, but many occupations had people working from home throughout the whole of part of the period, and many from various occupations were furloughed for part of all of the period. Teachers are no different to anyone else.

I have a doctorate in statistical analysis, and a couple of decades working in senior analytical roles. I know good methodology when I see it. I'm getting really red up with teachers, who clearly know f all about even basic data analysis trying to pick holes in robust data, just because it doesn't suit their agenda.

Stop scaremongering, and just accept the facts that teachers are at low risk of death when compared to other people of the same age in other occupations. This is GOOD NEWS for teachers, schools and ultimately our children.

@QueenofLouisiana

This shows data from times when schools are fully open. Yes, we asked for schools to be made safer, 32 children queuing to wash hands at one sink, 32 children sitting next to each other all day, eating together and until recently no masks allowed in classes. I’d like a rota so only 16 at a time- week in, week out maybe? Lots more space for children, more time for each child. Masks for children, other countries expect them from the age of 6- why are British children not able to cope? I am now used to telling the children that I am smiling behind the mask, so they know how I feel (I wear a visor for MFL and SALT work so children can see my mouth). I’m lucky to have good ventilation, I’m looking forward to warmer weather as teaching in a room with all the windows open when it is -1 is not pleasant and the children are freezing.

Please can I have the dataset for this data? Because if it is not age adjusted and compares with the "general population" (as it suggests), then it is heavily methodological flawed (deliberately to follow an agenda, given the source?) and should be disregarded.

In layman's terms, the rate of the "general population" is significantly lower than the rate of the working age population , so any occupation will show as high risk when plotted against the general population. It's an inappropriate and misleading comparison, and would not be allowable protocol in any data scrutiny exercise. In order to show a true picture, you need to compare a 50 year old female teacher with the population of female 50 year olds etc, as the ONS data did.

Please, please will everyone stop scaremongering and making teachers feel scared to go into schools, when they have no need to be. I will repeat, it is GOOD NEWS that teachers are low risk.

Stop scaremongering, and just accept the facts that teachers are at low risk of death when compared to other people of the same age in other occupations. This is GOOD NEWS for teachers, schools and ultimately our children.

I definitely wasn't scaremongering thanks.
Anyway, none of this answers my point about children infecting members of their family and therefore increasing community spread. This has been fairly widely agreed (and JVT confirmed this in last night's press conference).

@Whydoelephants

Those saying compulsory mask wearing at all times, are you saying from reception?

I work in Japan. Kids here are expected to wear masks at kindergarten/school from aged 3 and up. There’s a bit of touching in the young ones, but no worse than adults. They do get used to wearing masks fairly quickly.

People really don't give a shit about making schools safer do they?

@OverTheRainbowLiesOz

People really don't give a shit about making schools safer do they?

I do. But I think the measures already in place mean that schools are safe. At some points, the community rates have risen so high that the only safe thing to do is close the schools, as has happened. I don't believe there are any measures, short of closing schools, that would have made schools safe in April/May 2020 or in January/February 2021. The mix of measures that we have (handwashing/ ventilation/social distancing/masks in corridors/ school specifically measures such as zoning etc AND SCHOOL CLOSURES WHEN NEEDED) means that schools are safe, as supported by the statistical evidence.

So why are there still covid cases spreading in my daughters school? It's just too crowded, with not enough mask wearing in general.

@mrsm43s - I agree that no amount of measures would have prevented the need for schools to close as they have done now (although possibly if more measures had been in place since September, community rates would not have risen to the extent they have). My concern is that whenever it is next deemed 'safe' for schools to open, without any additional measures in place (on top of those used already), the same thing will happen again. During the Autumn term infections were rife in the secondary school my Y9 & Y7 dc attend, and they had multiple periods of class/year group/whole school closures. That was with masks in corridors, windows open and trying to keep KS3 years to class bubbles as much as possible. It simply wasn't enough, and I can't see what will be different in March, apart from lateral flow testing which isn't particularly accurate.

Measures such as part time school, having half the class in at a time for half the day or half the week would cause problems but would at least allow all kids some classroom time but with the ability to spread out more safely. Also everyone needs to stop stressing about kids in masks, most kids really don't care.

@OverTheRainbowLiesOz

So why are there still covid cases spreading in my daughters school? It's just too crowded, with not enough mask wearing in general.

I don't know. Are cases spreading in school at a greater rate than in the community? Do you have the data to prove it? There are still 30,000+ cases a day, by the law of averages, some will occur in schools.

Schools should be shut, with the exception of key worker children who have no-one at home to look after them, and vulnerable children who need to be in school. I'd suggest that if school is still crowded, then that is the problem - too many children in. Take it up with the headteacher.

It IS great that teachers are at low risk when schools are mostly shut.
But doesn't help hugely with getting schools open.

I do think we can learn from what other countries have done. Older primary kids could wear masks.

My Yr6 is used to his now. He often forgets to take it off after being in a shop and is happy to wear. If some are really unhappy then fine but even 50% compliance would help.

Germany put huge amounts of money in to filters and ventilation strategies for large public buildings including schools.

I have to say though. When discussing ways to make schools safer you tend to get jumped on with statements such as ‘that couldn’t possibly work in my school’. Kids get cold, kids don’t want to be outside etc.

I suggested marquees in summer and was hugely criticised on here! Yet my sons school have used them to great effect.

But what is clear is more £££ is needed for schools.

@pinkpip100

teachers are not disproportionately at risk.

I think those ONS statistics have been questioned though as they cover quite a long period when schools were closed to most, rather than just Sept-Dec when schools were open fully?

But even if this is the case, it's clear that children can catch and transmit the virus, particularly to those they live with, therefore school transmission must increase community transmission. Surely if we don't get it right in schools then levels will just increase again once they open fully.

I agree with this but:

How can the virus know the child is at home? Surely it spreads to ANY adult. If that is the case, children do transmit to teachers. I know teachers who have caught it. Plenty on here that have caught it.
It just doesn't fit the government narrative to admit it.
As for the ONS data, statistics are easily manipulated to suit an argument.

[quote pinkpip100]@mrsm43s - I agree that no amount of measures would have prevented the need for schools to close as they have done now (although possibly if more measures had been in place since September, community rates would not have risen to the extent they have). My concern is that whenever it is next deemed 'safe' for schools to open, without any additional measures in place (on top of those used already), the same thing will happen again. During the Autumn term infections were rife in the secondary school my Y9 & Y7 dc attend, and they had multiple periods of class/year group/whole school closures. That was with masks in corridors, windows open and trying to keep KS3 years to class bubbles as much as possible. It simply wasn't enough, and I can't see what will be different in March, apart from lateral flow testing which isn't particularly accurate. [/quote]
But nothing needs to be done differently, because despite your anecdata, the actual data shows that schools are safe when open. They are closed when it is not safe for them to open. The government have actually kept teachers safe (I suspect more by luck than judgement) by closing schools when they have. The important thing is that community infection rates fall to manageable levels before schools are reopened. Once they are, it is safe to open schools as previously.

Of course it does not fit government narrative. It will definitely go back into same spread / bubbles bursting if nothing is changed.

Many schools have very high proportions of key worker and vulnerable children in and THAT is why it is still spreading. Of course many of these children need to be in so the government and parents should be supporting additional safety measures.

Guessing this is a magnet for us4themselves trolls so this will be a post and run.

There is no profit in state schools - they'll give out billions to their mates private companies but nothing to schools.

They don't give a shit about you, your kids or school workers and invest in spin rather than safety measures.

Closing schools reveals the fact that camhs, social services and all other safeguarding and support services for children and families have been run into the ground and schools are pseudo sticking plaster for how fucked society is by a decade of austerity. If they remove the plaster the whole shit show will be revealed.

And if they don't then it will be a spectacular own goal.

@Fortherosesjoni70

The ONS data has not been manipulated. It's about the only bloody robust bit of data relating to CV and schools that hasn't been manipulated to suit an agenda. It is transparent and fully available to be interrogated. It is good reliable data, that has a robust methodology and follows protocols. Please look at the full release, the dataset, and the accompanying statistical bulletin for full details if you are still in doubt. Anyone with even a basic understanding of data analysis will see that it they take the time to read the full release.