Parents - how do you feel about teaching unions?

[Musicaldilemma]

Following various exchanges in real life and on here, I was wondering what other parents currently feel and think of teaching unions? Do you know a lot about them? What do you feel their role is and should be in this pandemic? If you are able to, please clarify if you are a parent married to a teacher or teacher parent. Or just a parent like myself with a few friends who are teachers. I was interested to see that teaching unions in Switzerland, for example, really pushed the message that schools must be and stay open for children’s mental health.

Unions in general are A Good Thing. We should remember, though, that unions' job is to advocate for their members. The idea is that unions push for their members, parents advocate for their own and their children's interests, and the government pushes for its own agenda, and the push-me-pull-me between the three elements is supposed to create the agenda for education. Kind of like governments having more than one debating chamber.

The union view is about the interests of members, not The Truly Enlightened Truth Of How Schools Should Be Run. Provided we all bear this mind, unions' voice is very useful and important.

Unions only start to be an issue when the "other" sidethe one pushing against unionsbecomes too weak and is not able to get its own side across.

Example: In America, the highly decentralized nature of the education system creates dysfunction-teachers' unions are bargaining with fairly minor local official rather than central government people, which gives unions arguably way too much power, leading to a lot of really insane demands. At the start, many American teachers were demanding the vaccine before they would agree to teach in-person again, which given the early approval of the vaccines is actually pretty doablebut as soon as it became clear that teachers could indeed be vaccinated at an early stage, the unions in many places have shifted the goalposts yet again and are now demanding, in many places, that kids also need to be vaccinated before in-person school can start. Widespread vaccination of children won't even begin until 2022, so this is absolutely insane.

I don't think the UK situation is much like this at all. Unions here have to argue with our fairly powerful central government, meaning that you tend to up with policy being dictated by a balance of different interests. But I do think the US situation is a good example why you don't just assume "Unions are lovely because we should Support! Teachers!" and automatically follow every demand. If we did that, we'd end up with the US's dysfunction.

@MarshaBradyo

I have absolutely no problems of schools being as per normal once cases are genuinely low, and there is a proper test and trace - including back tracing - going on.

@rawlikesushi. What because I object to unions advocating that teachers should refuse to provide anything more than slide packs? Yes I think it’s an abrogation of their duties and is utterly selfish. I understand that they’re not in school so it can’t be the same as a proper education but the unwillingness to show any flexibility shows how little the unions actually care about kids. It’s all about the teachers comfort.

@Bartlet

I have read it. Some teachers preference not to engage meaningfully with pupils remotely is more important than children’s rights to learn. If you can argue that learning in isolation via PowerPoint slides is an adequate education then why have teachers in the first place? If it’s not adequate (which it clearly isn’t) then why are unions campaigning for it? Prioritising teacher comfort over pupil education is their purpose but they can’t then pretend to care about children.

I do live lessons but only a % of pupils turn up.

It's very difficult. We have parents clamouring for more work, parents saying there's too much, parents who think live lessons are the holy grail of home learning, parents begging us not to do it because they haven't got enough devices/reliable wifi/adults available to supervise/they're sick of their kids staring at screens.

Most schools are trying to balance the demands placed on staff with providing an acceptable standard of work and support for their pupils. If yours falls short I'd suggest taking it up with them rather than maligning an entire profession.

[quote EnemyOfEducationNo1]@MarshaBradyo

I have absolutely no problems of schools being as per normal once cases are genuinely low, and there is a proper test and trace - including back tracing - going on.[/quote]
I admit I find it hard to envisage what it will be like after adults are vaccinated, esp at this time of night, but I’m not sure we will be testing community or isolating?

Maybe. Or perhaps it will be like the flu. Adults vaccinated each year and that’s it.

Maybe test at hospitals to identify new variants.

[quote Bartlet]@rawlikesushi. What because I object to unions advocating that teachers should refuse to provide anything more than slide packs? Yes I think it’s an abrogation of their duties and is utterly selfish. I understand that they’re not in school so it can’t be the same as a proper education but the unwillingness to show any flexibility shows how little the unions actually care about kids. It’s all about the teachers comfort.[/quote]
I wouldn't say it's about teacher comfort really, no.

Wow. This really didn’t go the way the OP hoped it would, did it?!

I don’t have a particular view on Teaching Unions in general. I don’t think they’ve come across well during the pandemic though.

What has really harmed unions in the UK is the militant RMT. Unfortunately that particular union gives all unions a bad name in the eyes of the public.

@Bartlet

I have read it. Some teachers preference not to engage meaningfully with pupils remotely is more important than children’s rights to learn. If you can argue that learning in isolation via PowerPoint slides is an adequate education then why have teachers in the first place? If it’s not adequate (which it clearly isn’t) then why are unions campaigning for it? Prioritising teacher comfort over pupil education is their purpose but they can’t then pretend to care about children.

Perhaps you’ve read it. But you haven’t understood it.

Yes, because they represent teachers and so they are responding to their members' concerns about having lessons observed and recorded by families
Teachers are rightly concerned about the possibility of being recorded. The issue is not generally with the recording itself, but what might be done with it. Teacher porn is a thing, and not all young people or their families are trustworthy.

about the inherent difficulty of teaching to a class whilst simultaneously responding to the questions and needs of those watching online.
Anyone who thinks this is easy or in fact provides an adequate learning experience should attempt to deliver such a lesson or try to learn in it.

Lots of schools are doing live lessons now but how many of you would truly relish the idea of 20 families watching you do your job, recording you doing it, emailing in their comments and opinions afterwards.
I doubt anyone would be comfortable with this level of critique of their professional practice by people who have little or no knowledge or understanding of that professional practice, or be able to deal with such a volume of correspondence and actually have a life (by which I mean, sleep and eat occasionally)

The point is that some teachers have legitimate concerns about aspects of online learning and, as in any job, are entitled to have representation to have these concerns addressed, and, if need be, rectified. To categorise it simply as a preference not to engage with learning remotely - the inference is with no good reason - or to characterise it as to do with teacher “comfort” is to unreasonably misrepresent the situation.
And I don’t think anyone has argued that a set of PowerPoint slides in isolation is an adequate education.

@rawlikesushi. I’m not critical of teachers. My issue is with your unions. I’m sure that individual teachers are doing their best and hope that they care about the quality (or lack of it) that young people are getting. Surely you can see that the refusal to do any live or recorded lessons, no personalised contact and relying entirely on slide decks is not adequate? If you’re saying that it’s sufficient then why do we need teachers?

Bartlet It really isn't all about the teachers' comfort. If everything the unions were advocating was about teachers' comfort, they'd be campaigning for oodies and chocolate.

You really are being silly.

You're determined to turn this all into some fantasy that teachers are doing all this in order to create some blissful nirvana for themselves, whilst you're finding the pandemic gruelling.

This is both wrong (and two minutes actually thinking about it will tell you it's wrong) and also very negative and destructive.

Why put all that mental effort into a construct that is so harmful and wrong, holding onto it in the face of evident reality and reason?

I think the compensation is some sort of 'negative solidarity', whereby you are thinking that your situation is hard but it will be made better if you can degrade someone else.

Honestly, I think it would be better, more productive, and just healthier to accept most of us are finding this all really grim.

Really, the things you should get angry about are the vast amounts of money that some people - strangely enough, friends of the government, have made from this pandemic.

So sorry to hear about your DD’s teacher, tiktoker and how it has affected your DD Such a tragedy.

[quote Bartlet]@rawlikesushi. I’m not critical of teachers. My issue is with your unions. I’m sure that individual teachers are doing their best and hope that they care about the quality (or lack of it) that young people are getting. Surely you can see that the refusal to do any live or recorded lessons, no personalised contact and relying entirely on slide decks is not adequate? If you’re saying that it’s sufficient then why do we need teachers?[/quote]
Bartlett did you say you were in Scotland? Is it different to here - we have guidelines on what needs to be provided

teachers are doing all this in order to create some blissful nirvana for themselves

That thread asking teachers if they were having a lovelier time now schools are closed was pretty clear that no we’re not and we generally hate being out of the classroom. People don’t seem to understand that we are in the job for the interaction with the kids and that we enjoy teaching.

@Pastanred
I’m a teacher too and totally agree with you.

Parents in Scotland angry at lack of live provision should be furious at a particular batshit ‘grassroots parenting organisation’ who was advising its members to record teachers giving live lessons, post them on the internet for dissection and complain about the quality.

The Scottish teaching union had to take legal action to make them stop it.

So if a teacher is relevant to give a live lesson, it’s because of shitheads like that.

Should have said ‘reluctant’ to give live lessons.

@noblegiraffe

Parents in Scotland angry at lack of live provision should be furious at a particular batshit ‘grassroots parenting organisation’ who was advising its members to record teachers giving live lessons, post them on the internet for dissection and complain about the quality.

The Scottish teaching union had to take legal action to make them stop it.

So if a teacher is relevant to give a live lesson, it’s because of shitheads like that.

😮
Seriously?

Can’t they do recorded?

We don’t have live in primary, and mostly found content. It’s still going well I think

Although hard to compare as no experience of live at primary level (great at secondary)

But still, all better than ppt

Thank you for your faux concern and rather patronising response @thecatfromjapan. I know it’s a shit situation for everyone. Have never disputed that and I’m not lashing out against the world or in denial. I’m not angry as such with the unions. They’re doing entirely what they are designed to do. Put their members interests above everyone else’s - especially children. I don’t see what’s so controversial about that.

noblegiraffe I'm actually speechless.

I thought we told children not to do that.

Why would adults do that?

It's appalling, irrational behaviour - and just a terrible, terrible example to children.

@MarshaBradyo. Absolutely. A blend of live, recorded and workbook would be good but we don’t get that. Teachers have home lives to manage which makes it difficult to go fully live and there are issues with pupils home situation which means that fully live is sometimes not desirable but at secondary level to get no meaningful contact with teachers is appalling.

Yep, cat here’s the legal letter the EIS had to send to UsforThem Scotland.

www.eis.org.uk/Content/images/corona/UsForThem.pdf

I hope Scottish parents know where to direct their anger now.

Bartlet I listed 2 reasons why live lessons aren't the magic bullet.

And if you look on threads about how parents are managing, you'll see I'm telling the truth.

And, actually noblegiraffe has explained why the unions are quite correct in their worry about people posting live lessons on social media.

(For what it's worth, that's actually rendered me speechless.)

Fair enough if you find me patronising but it's a genuine question: why would anyone hold on to a belief that is evidently not true (this is just about teachers being lazy) in the face of evidence and the balance of probability, especially when that belief makes them experience really negative emotions such as anger?

It just makes no sense to me.

It's just irrational.

Sorry if that's patronising but it's true. I just find it odd.

Oh secondary. That’s really tough on dc