How can we show our dissent?

[Downtown36]

Feeling so desperate after the announcement today that essentially has us all in this level of lockdown for another 6 weeks weeks at least.

Rates of infection on a steady decline and already so many vaccinated. I wholly disagree with it continuing at the is level. What can I do about it?

DuchessofHastings1

Do you really think people cleverer than you in the world, have not thought this through?

How deep are your pockets? If you don’t mind a few £10k fines, you can have a party round your house every Friday night. Put something on your local FB page, I’m sure somebody will turn up. That’ll definitely show Boris

Take the figures seriously and analyse them. I extend sympathy to everyone who has lost someone close and important to them, without reservation. But most of the dead were old. In reality, COVID has brought forward the inevitable.

Numbers are coming down because of lockdown. A few more weeks (actually three) will hopefully allow the trend to continue and vaccination to cover enough that once the temo goes up and the sun starts shining we can ease restrictions. Furlough ends not after.

‘But most of the dead were old.’

Nice. I’m 57 with a dd 14. But I’m old so it doesn’t matter eh?

But most of the dead were old

Yep, some of my ICU patients were over 50! Unimaginably old

If you haven’t watched this documentary you should. Tell me these patients were likely to die this year anyway.

Hospitals are full of Covid yes, but they've been full and over run for years. Winter of 2018, there was no beds and people sleeping in corridors, nurses and doctors over worked and exhausted.
People have died and the NHS have overrun before

Yes, and this is worse than that!

The death toll from covid and the numbers admitted for treatment for covid dwarf those of any flu in recent history. And that’s with mitigation measures. My hospital has seventeen wards (including newly repurposed and temporary wards). Ten are full with patients all with the same diagnosis needing the same management. That never happens... till now.

I’m failing to understand what exactly your point is tbh. What exactly is it you want? No restrictions? Different restrictions? Just let whatever happens to the only accessible healthcare system we have happen and see what can be rebuilt after?

I find it mind boggling that the OP thought restrictions were about to be lifted, on a day when 1700+ deaths were announced. Some people really don’t keep in touch with reality.

@wanderings

You're right to talk about this, OP, even if the lockdown zealots are trying to shut you down. I talk about this sort of thing regularly, and I don't care who tries to silence me. The forthcoming carnage to the economy, people's livelihoods and mental health must be talked about, even though the government and much of Mumsnet are trying to shut this discussion down with cries of "VIRUS!!! DEATH!!! VIRUS!!! DEATH!!! VIRUS!!! DEATH!!!".

In the short term, I think the only realistic thing we can do is to keep trying to counter this cult sentiment of "lockdown at all costs", which has been spun by the government, and which many people have bought right into, because the reality of economic destruction hasn't bitten yet, while the government keep throwing money at the problem. Unemployment (now 2.6 million; Thatcher would be proud) is being hushed up. Write to your MP. Get it on their record that there is disapproval of lockdown, and we intend to hold the government to account on how they intend to rebuild lockdown-ravaged Britain. Don't cower at home, use any freedom given. Exercise regularly, and travel to it; it's guidance, not law. Only wear a mask in places where it is mandatory. These things might feel like pissing in the wind, but they are baby steps to bend the statistics more against lockdown. Unless Boris is playing a very clever game (which I doubt he is capable of, even he doesn't want lockdown, and imposed this one under duress.

Much as I would love to see some overt public red-hot fury, because I think the public were much too ready to accept lockdown (turkeys voting for Christmas and all that), even I think that now is not the time. I think the government is very aware of the simmering public anger, they are realising that the game of brainwashing will soon be up, and they are timing announcements carefully to try to quell public unrest. Yesterday and today were perfect examples. As a temporary break from the campaign of fear, we had a token grovel yesterday from Saint Boris about the deaths (which complements the fear campaign), and the merest shred of hope about schools today, even if it's totally meaningless, because we know how Saint Boris likes to U-turn on somebody's whim (not his own).

There are lockdown sceptics out there, but even the most hardened of them are keeping their powder dry for the moment. As Nick Hornby would put it, it's hard being right when the rest of the world is wrong. Even the "Covid recovery group" of MPs are keeping quiet, as is Nigel Farage, who has toyed with "the anti-lockdown party" (I'll believe in that when I see it). Everyone is giving the vaccine the benefit of the doubt, because it just might be the game-changer.

Crunch time will be if the vaccine shows signs of effectiveness; the government are underselling the vaccine, because they don't want people to fight over it. If nothing has changed in March - if Saint Boris delays schools yet again, tells us no roolz will change in spite of rapidly falling infection rates, or tells us that freedoms will only be given to those who have been vaccinated (thus making it compulsory by stealth), then will be the time to start getting angry, and for the overt disobedience, seeing family members regardless, businesses opening anyway.

Probably the most important time to be angry is after the worst of this is over: the next battle will be preventing lockdown becoming a normalised fixture of our lives, ready to be wheeled out every winter whenever the government bleats "alas, the NHS is starting to struggle". Before then, when the shit really hits the fan, furlough stops, unemployment is through the roof, people are losing their homes, suicides are happening regularly, that is when the public red mist will descend. Saint Boris and his merry men are trying not to think about that right now, or they're all planning to resign just before then.

Absolutely brilliant and spot on When the fightbsck starts and it will I'm there

I was told recently by someone who works there, that a&e is really busy with people who have attempted suicide. Lockdown has been incredibly harmful for the mental health of many. Can't think of an alternative but I think it's disgusting the way some people are dismissive of every single concern except covid.

RIOT!!
Nah just kidding. Just suck it up, you are in a warm, comfortable home with food in your belly. It's not like you're in a refugee camp or war torn country right?

@shamalidacdak

RIOT!! Nah just kidding. Just suck it up, you are in a warm, comfortable home with food in your belly. It's not like you're in a refugee camp or war torn country right?

Ah yeah, I guess tell that to the families of people who have committed suicide as a result of it all. I mean, what right did they have to be depressed?

@wanderings

You're right to talk about this, OP, even if the lockdown zealots are trying to shut you down. I talk about this sort of thing regularly, and I don't care who tries to silence me. The forthcoming carnage to the economy, people's livelihoods and mental health must be talked about, even though the government and much of Mumsnet are trying to shut this discussion down with cries of "VIRUS!!! DEATH!!! VIRUS!!! DEATH!!! VIRUS!!! DEATH!!!".

In the short term, I think the only realistic thing we can do is to keep trying to counter this cult sentiment of "lockdown at all costs", which has been spun by the government, and which many people have bought right into, because the reality of economic destruction hasn't bitten yet, while the government keep throwing money at the problem. Unemployment (now 2.6 million; Thatcher would be proud) is being hushed up. Write to your MP. Get it on their record that there is disapproval of lockdown, and we intend to hold the government to account on how they intend to rebuild lockdown-ravaged Britain. Don't cower at home, use any freedom given. Exercise regularly, and travel to it; it's guidance, not law. Only wear a mask in places where it is mandatory. These things might feel like pissing in the wind, but they are baby steps to bend the statistics more against lockdown. Unless Boris is playing a very clever game (which I doubt he is capable of, even he doesn't want lockdown, and imposed this one under duress.

Much as I would love to see some overt public red-hot fury, because I think the public were much too ready to accept lockdown (turkeys voting for Christmas and all that), even I think that now is not the time. I think the government is very aware of the simmering public anger, they are realising that the game of brainwashing will soon be up, and they are timing announcements carefully to try to quell public unrest. Yesterday and today were perfect examples. As a temporary break from the campaign of fear, we had a token grovel yesterday from Saint Boris about the deaths (which complements the fear campaign), and the merest shred of hope about schools today, even if it's totally meaningless, because we know how Saint Boris likes to U-turn on somebody's whim (not his own).

There are lockdown sceptics out there, but even the most hardened of them are keeping their powder dry for the moment. As Nick Hornby would put it, it's hard being right when the rest of the world is wrong. Even the "Covid recovery group" of MPs are keeping quiet, as is Nigel Farage, who has toyed with "the anti-lockdown party" (I'll believe in that when I see it). Everyone is giving the vaccine the benefit of the doubt, because it just might be the game-changer.

Crunch time will be if the vaccine shows signs of effectiveness; the government are underselling the vaccine, because they don't want people to fight over it. If nothing has changed in March - if Saint Boris delays schools yet again, tells us no roolz will change in spite of rapidly falling infection rates, or tells us that freedoms will only be given to those who have been vaccinated (thus making it compulsory by stealth), then will be the time to start getting angry, and for the overt disobedience, seeing family members regardless, businesses opening anyway.

Probably the most important time to be angry is after the worst of this is over: the next battle will be preventing lockdown becoming a normalised fixture of our lives, ready to be wheeled out every winter whenever the government bleats "alas, the NHS is starting to struggle". Before then, when the shit really hits the fan, furlough stops, unemployment is through the roof, people are losing their homes, suicides are happening regularly, that is when the public red mist will descend. Saint Boris and his merry men are trying not to think about that right now, or they're all planning to resign just before then.

Can't even be bothered to try and respond to such utter rubbish.

[quote DuchessofHastings1]@WitchesBritchesPumpkinPants

How have I suggested it will go away once we stop lockdown?
When have I suggested the hospitals are not over run with patients who have Covid?
I don't think I'm the one who needs to use my brain.

This virus will be around for years and years. Cases will fluctuate.
Hospitals are full of Covid yes, but they've been full and over run for years. Winter of 2018, there was no beds and people sleeping in corridors, nurses and doctors over worked and exhausted.
People have died and the NHS have overrun before Covid and it will after Covid.
Should we do these lockdowns each time theres something new? Do this every winter? Crash the economy, people with more serious conditions not getting appointments, more suicide, more mental health rates, more children out of education each every time.

Come on, use the brain your born with.[/quote]
Meanwhile theres been 3,000 less cancer referrals and people with cancer are at home cant get appointments or the care that they need - but you know, Covid is all that matters

How exactly do you think these things would improve if we didn't lock down and we just let the virus run rampant?

I'll type it slowly for you

It's not the lockdown causing other services to have to stop it's the virus

If you can't understand that basic fact, then I give up.

@BMW6

OP

For what feels like the millionth time, the primary purpose of lockdown is NOT to prevent deaths.

It is to stop the NHS being swamped - there are too many patients and not enough beds in ICU's, staff levels are down because of Covid and ambulances are overrun. Covid is causing massive numbers of hospitalisation, far far more than in a "normal" flu season (and christ knows they are bad enough)

Whitty, Van Tam et al have explained this over and over again. Posters on this thread and others have explained it repeatedly.

What don't you understand about it OP? What do you propose to do about the tens of thousands MORE that will need hospital treatment that will not be available? If lockdown is lifted too soon the R rate will rocket, of course. Thousands will be calling for ambulances that cannot come, and there would be no hospital able to take them.

Not just for Covid of course. Could be babies with meningitis, Mums giving birth, child broken leg, your loved one having a heart attack.

Are you simply not able to comprehend how close we are to this nightmare scenario NOW, let alone how it will escalate if lockdown is lifted?

Well said @BMW6.

The inability of people to understand this is depressing. I hate lockdown, all it entails and the wider implications, but I hate to think of the wider implications of the virus being allowed to rage through our population unchecked.

Lockdown is the lesser of the two evils IMO.

a&e is really busy with people who have attempted suicide. Lockdown has been incredibly harmful for the mental health of many.
Thank you for mentioning this, it needs to be talked about. This is the sort of thing that is being hushed up, and not being reported, because the behavioural experts think we shouldn't hear it.

I agree with wanderings.
To all of the posters on here who agree with lockdowns, can l ask how long you want them for? Because it seems to me that they haven't worked previously, so unless we live in perpetual lockdown it won't work.
I rather foolishly supported this current one to begin with as it seemed to be about giving us time to allow the most vulnerable to be vaccinated. Fair enough, I thought, despite the economic fallout. Except now it seems to me that it's not about that. Now apparently case numbers have to be low (but surely they'll rise again the minute we unlock?). Or are we waiting for everyone to be vaccinated? But then again, if the virus continues to be transmitted and mutates, that won't be good enough either.
So we live in constant lockdown?
Due to my work, I have seen the economic nightmare that this is causing. I have seen redundancies. I have no idea if those people have found new jobs (I really doubt it though). I also have no idea if they will lose their homes.
I do care about people's health but I really don't think we can go on like this much longer.

I work in mental health and I second the need to talk about the suicide rates and MH effects.

I lost a family member during the early winter. Everyone assumes it was covid, I’m astonished that people have forgotten that there are other causes of death. He died due to excessive drinking brought on by the misery of the pandemic, which made his MH problems worse snd forced him into isolation.

I have young people on my caseload who were doing well but have now been sectioned. Patients released from hospital who cannot be rehabilitated due to restrictions (eg, support workers can’t take them out in the car, groups and activities can’t run, no goals to aim for). They are slowly returning to MH beds under section.

It’s an absolute disaster for MH and it isn’t being discussed because it’s counter to the prevailing narrative.

@wanderings

a&e is really busy with people who have attempted suicide. Lockdown has been incredibly harmful for the mental health of many. Thank you for mentioning this, it needs to be talked about. This is the sort of thing that is being hushed up, and not being reported, because the behavioural experts think we shouldn't hear it.

Mental illness provision has been woefully inadequate for years. Lockdown hasn't caused that, it's always been there, but mainly no one gave a shit to be honest. Now that people with a voice are being affected, people are starting to see, but easing lockdown is not going to suddenly improve mental illness provision, it may stop more people falling further down a black hole, but it's not going to improve the state of mental health services. After lockdown does end, it'll just go back to being ignored by those it doesn't affect as they turn the other way again and get on with their lives.

Lockdown is bringing me down, but I understand the need for it.
I don't think that anyone who questions it sensibly is a granny killer, with valid points and a decent argument, but the same people that are accusing people of telling those who do question of just shouting granny killer, are for their part calling those of us who believe it's the lesser of 2 evils sheep, mindless, lockdown zealots and making out like we're all happy to be sealed in our houses forever. You don't sound any better than the ones shouting granny killer. Neither set of accusations make for a decent debate, it's pathetic, on both sides.
There's a middle ground, people like me who have been systematically screwed over by the Tories because we've commited the crime of being on a low wage, made to feel worthless and like scroungers if we need benefits to live. Yet here we have a Tory government giving away millions to people to support them through lockdowns, I can't see that's being done through the kindness of their hearts. I have learned that people like me are expendable, we don't matter. I really do think that if there was another viable option, it'd be happening right now.
I've worked right through, with these elderly that apparently too, are expendable, it would seem care workers and medical staff mean even less than their patients, they're not over 80, they're not going to die soon anyway, but it's ok for them to be collateral damage? It's ok for doctors, nurses, paramedics, allied professions and care workers to just catch it and die as covid goes through the country? Where do you think you're going to get your cancer treatment, or emergency treatment for a stroke or heart attack if half the staff are dead, or too sick to treat anyone?
It's not just death that's the issue, it's not just bed space that's the issue, you need enough staff not at home with Covid, in ICU themselves, or struggling with the side effects of covid, or dead from covid, to be able to treat the other conditions that need it. It's not that only covid matters, it's covid that's overwhelming bed space, medics time and medics themselves.
We know that the average age of dying from covid is 82. But what's the average age of needing hospital treatment? The average age of admission? The average age of ICU patients?

In bald terms (and my apologies to anyone who has lost someone to covid who this upsets, but it needs to be said) the dead aren't taking up hospital beds are they?

I don't think those of us who are against compulsory lockdown and those who aren't will ever change our views. Liberty with a hugely greater increase in death risk for me will always trump everything even if my risk of death is 100x worse, my personal death risk and that of my family. I accept particularly in the UK most people do not share that view, most people support the restrictions and in fact we are a very gentle peaceful nation (which is a good thing) and more prone to handing out cup of tea than riots which is probably whey so many people like to live here.

I have been against the mandatory measures since March but because I am lie most British people i have still gone ahead and followed them as I don't pick and choose which laws to obey (although of course all of us there is always tipping point eg if the state ordered you to murder someone etc).

Hopefully the ban on all weddings except for the dying in force since 19 Dec will be lifted soon for those with only 13 guests and no party and children will be allowed an education again as the vaccinations take place and the weather gets better. however as a nation we need to pan for next winter - what level of restrictions we can afford to have in place, exactly who gets a school place if in some schools 30 of 32 are in school because all are key worker children other than those poor 2 who are excluded (extreme example but is one mumsnetter's experience) and particularly school public exams and impact on women giving up jobs because they cannot work full time on phone calls all day 9 - 6 whilst also supervising 5 year olds.

The other thing we need to look at is what is making our people so much sicker than many abroad and how we can really help people tackle the huge issues of obesity and diabetes which hit the UK so much worse than many other countries.

What’s making our people so much sicker is Boris’s crap handling of the pandemic. We’ve ranked 66th in the world below much less developed nations.

And this.

But Xenia, when you say Liberty with a hugely greater increase in death risk for me will always trump everything even if my risk of death is 100x worse, my personal death risk and that of my family. dont' you realise that your decision affects people other you and your family?

If you or your family get sick because you feel you should be able to do what you want when you want are you going to refuse hospital treament? For every person like you who wants to carry on as normal and feels no guilt about passing on a disease to another family (because they are old and nearly dead anyway) it means more hospital admissions, more NHS staff getting sick or having to isolate, which means no capacity to treat anything else.

The virus spreads by people getting close to each other. If only you and your family were affected I would say crack on, but that's not how it works.

I know but on the other side are all the young people dying of suicide, the potential cancer sufferers not obtaining medical advice and children not catching colds which might sound a minor thing but means they don't build up immunity for later life which has health consequences.

I respect the views on both sides which are mostly well meant and even the Governments around the world from day 1 have been saying they do this same balancing act rather than only doing the thing which saves CV19 patients from death. It is not easy to know where to draw the line.

@Xenia I agree with you. Liberty with a greater risk of harm or death makes sense to me too.

@ConcernedAuntie You remind Xenia that her decisions affect people beyond her own family. Surely that is true in every aspect of our society - we are affected by behaviour we don’t necessarily agree with. Medical treatment regularly goes to people who have taken a risk or not looked after their health, and not to someone in need through no fault of their own. I suppose we all accept being impacted by other people’s choices as a price of living in a wider community.