Germany saying AZ vaccine only 8% effective in over 65s *MNHQ noting that this story has been widely debunked*

[dbIdb]

What fresh hell is this.

Why, why, why was the Oxford trial/data reporting so sloppy?

How has it come to this??

The EU legitimately ordered and prepaid a number of vaccine doses from AZ last year. AZ has suddenly announced that they can't deliver the full number... but cannot explain why, and are not giving satisfactory explanations as to what happened to these other doses. They are highly suspected of having sold them to higher bidders (including the UK), despite their existing contractual obligations to the EU

Yeah, we're the ones spreading misinformation.

@MRex

Oh dear, it's like a lesson in how not to do supplier management. Why on earth aren't the EU asking what they can do to help speed up the process? At least giving EMA approval to conclude the contract?

Yes it’s not even approved yet.

One the plus side at least the vaccine is wanted. So many posts on here stating it wouldn’t be. Plus all the other endless negatives.

One the plus side at least the vaccine is wanted. So many posts on here stating it wouldn’t be. Plus all the other endless negatives.

Remember there were a couple of posters who used to turn up on every vaccine thread and go on and on about how utterly useless Oxford was and that people here only wanted it because it was British? They'd, assuming they were different people, would even turn up on unrelated threads just to slag off the Oxford vaccine. So weird. Haven't seen them for some time.

@FourTeaFallOut

The EU legitimately ordered and prepaid a number of vaccine doses from AZ last year. AZ has suddenly announced that they can't deliver the full number... but cannot explain why, and are not giving satisfactory explanations as to what happened to these other doses. They are highly suspected of having sold them to higher bidders (including the UK), despite their existing contractual obligations to the EU

Yeah, we're the ones spreading misinformation.

That’s not necessarily misinformation. It’s been reported widely, including in the Telegraph.

As was said on Twitter last night, surely this is a resignation matter for the Handelsblatt journalist? Bild though... don't they have form for constant stories like "Kate Middleton is pregnant - and it's quads!"?

@FourTeaFallOut

The EU legitimately ordered and prepaid a number of vaccine doses from AZ last year. AZ has suddenly announced that they can't deliver the full number... but cannot explain why, and are not giving satisfactory explanations as to what happened to these other doses. They are highly suspected of having sold them to higher bidders (including the UK), despite their existing contractual obligations to the EU

Yeah, we're the ones spreading misinformation.

Er, no, that's not misinformation! They are suspected of having sold them to higher bidders, and AZ have so far failed to give further information as to what has happened to the doses. This is the crux of the current issue, and the reason why the EU is seeking more transparency in exports.

@Gastropod

The amount of misinformation, wilful misinterpreting of information, conspiracy theorising and utter fake news on this thread is mind boggling.

The EU legitimately ordered and prepaid a number of vaccine doses from AZ last year. AZ has suddenly announced that they can't deliver the full number... but cannot explain why, and are not giving satisfactory explanations as to what happened to these other doses. They are highly suspected of having sold them to higher bidders (including the UK), despite their existing contractual obligations to the EU.

To prevent this from happening in the future with other vaccines (and thus making a complete mockery of any kind of procurement procedure - if it doesn't matter whether you've bought and paid for something, because somebody else can buy it from under you), they want to be able to have more transparency on where vaccines produced in the EU are being exported to. This should help to bring to light any dodgy dealings, as suspected with the AZ order.

This has got nothing to do with effing tourists travelling to Spain this summer, or even the German media's (now debunked) 8% claim!

Equally AZ are not obliged (whether anyone likes it or not) to reveal trade contracts with governments.

Personally I think transparency is better. But there isn't an existing obligation on any company to be upfront about this. Thats Big Pharma in particular for you.

And there are a couple of reasons why it is entirely possible that AZ believe they have been keeping to the contract even if the EU disagree. That can probably only be resolved via the courts.

The EU think there is dodgy dealings going on. AZ don't. These contracts don't appear to be as simple as made out. Which is not a revelation.

Noting this is a not for profit venture by AZ.

Im quite happy to leave this open to question at this stage in the absence of evidence of actual wrong doing - there seems room for a fair and plausable defence here.

Which is quite separate from moral arguments...

Despite the fact that AZ are doing this on a (at the moment) not for profit basis? 🤔

X post

To be fair, it was all over Twitter a couple of weeks ago that the EU were paying less per dose ( I think for Pfizer) than the U.K. The EU must have leaked this as it wouldn’t have come from the manufacturer.
Could this price “transparency “ have backfired abit on the EU now? Not the reduced price, fair play to them for that but the bragging?

They are suspected of having sold them to higher bidders, and AZ have so far failed to give further information as to what has happened to the doses. This is the crux of the current issue, and the reason why the EU is seeking more transparency in exports.

Take it to court then rather than conflating 'suspicion' with 'evidence for'.

I mean if we definitely are all about transparency, lets see the EU led the way on this one.

Lets see the contract the EU have with AZ and let lawyers see if AZs explaination may hold water. We will quickly see if the thread upthread about the EU's contract being full of holes is true.

I have a very sneaking suspicion that that may not be as forthcoming as you'd perhaps think should be the case...

From Peston and ITV

www.itv.com/news/2021-01-26/covid-vaccine-what-is-the-dispute-between-the-eu-and-astrazeneca

Just listening to Times radio and delay in AZ is according to AZ nothing to do with the price. Everyone is charged cost price. It is because the EU signed the contract 3 months after the U.K. and so has not allowed time to iron out the supply issues ( that the U.K. had too, just had time to sort them)

@tobee

As was said on Twitter last night, surely this is a resignation matter for the Handelsblatt journalist? Bild though... don't they have form for constant stories like "Kate Middleton is pregnant - and it's quads!"?

Gregor Waschinski @washingtonski has gone really rather quiet on twitter. Not a peep since his scoop yesterday.

Does seem EU is getting in a muddle with this. PR looking terrible

AZ have so far failed to give further information as to what has happened to the doses
Astrazeneca said there was an issue with a partner plant in Belgium run by Novosep. That's extremely specific.

The EU signed 3 months later so were running behind in set-up. Shortages in raw material supply such as vials were looked at specifically by the UK in planning, hence additional contracts to create more vials in the UK; the EU could have done similar planning had they chosen to.

@RedToothBrush

They are suspected of having sold them to higher bidders, and AZ have so far failed to give further information as to what has happened to the doses. This is the crux of the current issue, and the reason why the EU is seeking more transparency in exports.

Take it to court then rather than conflating 'suspicion' with 'evidence for'.

I mean if we definitely are all about transparency, lets see the EU led the way on this one.

Lets see the contract the EU have with AZ and let lawyers see if AZs explaination may hold water. We will quickly see if the thread upthread about the EU's contract being full of holes is true.

I have a very sneaking suspicion that that may not be as forthcoming as you'd perhaps think should be the case...

I'm certainly not qualified to give any judgement on whether the EU is right, or legally justified in this (just trying to explain, as best I can, from the sources that I have access to, what the situation is from the EU perspective).

But the ridiculous reasons given on this thread for the current state of affairs, including the notion that this is all some kind of perverse EU revenge for Brexit, are just plain bollocks.

So yes, perhaps AZ are legally on solid ground, but on the other hand it's worth pointing out that EU's motives here really are not to engage in some kind of war with Britain because of Brexit and the loss of some UK tourists to the Costa del Sol, as suggested above.

I don’t think anyone thinks it’s revenge for Brexit do they?
More the EU panicking and trying to cover up its own shortcomings.
Anyway Jeremy hunt on John pilfers show now and thinks it’s mainly just noise and will be resolved

So yes, perhaps AZ are legally on solid ground, but on the other hand it's worth pointing out that EU's motives here really are not to engage in some kind of war with Britain because of Brexit and the loss of some UK tourists to the Costa del Sol, as suggested above.

The EU is now a trading rival to the UK.

At some point there was likely to be trading rivalry or disputes to arise (hence the need for there to be a mechanism within the deal for such disputes and it being a real sticking point).

We know there is a world shortage of vaccine. We know that AZ based and funded in the UK (but also a significant EU pharma company) has one of the few vaccines that is regarded as viable.

We know the EU is having major political issues over its vaccine programme.

Thats a cocktail that makes the chances of the first trade dispute between the EU and UK highly likely to be over covid vaccine. It is not any great shocker.

Who is 'in the right' is a different question, but its not unsurprising to see this situation arising. In the slightest.

If the tables were reversed, you can bet your life the UK would be trying every avenue it could to try and apply pressure for additional or faster deliveries in one way or another.

Nature of the beast. Its why the EU insisted on a single strategy to stop infighting and competition between member states (which looks likely to break out anyway). WHO warned about the possibility.

Gastropod I agree it’s not Brexit etc related

MRex yes that sounds like a specific issue

We’ve gone from baseless 8% claim to issues around strong demand in under 24 hours. Too much!

@Baileysforchristmas

What if the EU don’t approve the vaccine for a very long time? What would happen then

They will use others? It's not like there's a shortage of vaccine brands on offer in this case

[quote trulydelicious]@Baileysforchristmas

What if the EU don’t approve the vaccine for a very long time? What would happen then

They will use others? It's not like there's a shortage of vaccine brands on offer in this case[/quote]
Except there is a shortage of vaccines brands in full production and have any level of proven effectiveness on offer. Thats the entire fucking problem.

The EU legitimately ordered and prepaid a number of vaccine doses from AZ last year. AZ has suddenly announced that they can't deliver the full number... but cannot explain why, and are not giving satisfactory explanations as to what happened to these other doses. They are highly suspected of having sold them to higher bidders (including the UK), despite their existing contractual obligations to the EU.

Whatever the issue with AZ it's wrong to tie it to the Pfizer supply and threaten to block that.

There

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

The EU legitimately ordered and prepaid a number of vaccine doses from AZ last year. AZ has suddenly announced that they can't deliver the full number... but cannot explain why, and are not giving satisfactory explanations as to what happened to these other doses. They are highly suspected of having sold them to higher bidders (including the UK), despite their existing contractual obligations to the EU.

Whatever the issue with AZ it's wrong to tie it to the Pfizer supply and threaten to block that.

There

Indeed. That makes a politicial issue close to the definition of a 'trade war' with a country rather than a contract dispute with AZ.

I note that the EU has not banned vaccine exports though. Its merely threatening to.

@Chickenqueen

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/26/eu-means-business-covid-vaccine-exports-ursula-von-der-leyen

Seems like the EU is not playing around with this....Ursula Von Der Leyen doubling down!

Yes she gave a very fair and honest sounding speech about it

So why did an image of the chancellor in star wars pop into my head