UsForThem - “opaque lobbyists” with links to the far right?

[LacyEdge]

Prof Alice Roberts started an interesting Twitter thread discussing this, linking to Nafeez Ahmed’s article about U4T in Byline Times. Replies suggest UsForThem aren’t a concerned parents’ group at all and are linked with a far right funded group.

Well I never.

twitter.com/theAliceRoberts/status/1352993581414424576

This virus is airborne. Viruses are tiny. Most of the air you breath out just goes up and around the sides of a mask. The viruses can also go straight though a cloth mask.
Relying on them is dangerous.

If you want to call for safer schools (bearing in mind that they're as safe as they were in 2019 for most people under 60 with no-comorbidities), then call for stuff that actually works, like high quality filter air con, or windows that open if your classroom's don't.

Let the kids for whom it is safe to return now back in until what you want is done.

@Plummydevon

I did not say we should let the fat die it is their own fault, taken entirely wrongly.

I am clearly saying children shouldn’t suffer for those who don’t value their own well being. And I ALSO said that those who are vulnerable should be given full support to stay protected. That can and could include those with a high BMI to be given full furlough as said and those in contact with them more testing and so on.

And it is actually evidenced that the larger you are, the increase in fat cells that you carry increase your viral load and chance of passing the disease on. Feel free to fact check.

However. The main point of my now deleted post was to say that wanting children to be put first and back in school is very much not a typical right wing move, it is the opposite of that. Free education is a social leveller. Let alone all the abuse and neglect cases increasing.

A lot of the parents running and in us for them can afford private tutors and sport coaches to catch their children up if they need to in the future and have great home lives. People aren’t just concerned for their own children it’s about what is proportionate and what is the right thing to do for young people who only get one childhood. That this would be thought of a morally reprehensible is very sad.

The children are you know still having a childhood.

If we want them back in school then we need to put money and energy into planning how to make it safe and continue on in as secure a way as possible.

for all our sakes.

We can all do without the chaos of last term and then one day in and out again of primary schools this term. We need a bit of intelligent planning and infection control please.

See also WHO guidelines.

Temp can you visualise two people talking face to face?

There are loads of simulations out there about aerosols, if you Google.. Covid aerosols when talking sans mask, they will come up.
You will see even in simulations with poorer masks that aerosols are '' diverted '' away from flying directly into nose and eyes.

Adding a visor is even better of course.

World Health Organisation **on masks and social distancing

www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks
www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-children-and-masks-related-to-covid-19

Sensible advice with caveats regarding conditions that might make mask wearing inadvisable.

** The WHO is real and not a made up organisation that you can disregard and sneer at if you feel so inclined.

Donald Trump had enough of experts too.

He is at a loose end now. Makes you wonder.

Adults with obesity were shown to have higher viral load and longer shedding time in H1N1 [14]. During and after the 2009 influenza A/H1N1 pandemic, higher body mass index was recognized as an independent risk factor, which resulted in increased disease severity, hospitalization, risk of spreading the disease, and death [6].

Apologies if that WHO link has been posted before. It can’t hurt to repeat though.

@Justthebeerlighttoguide

Temp can you visualise two people talking face to face?

There are loads of simulations out there about aerosols, if you Google.. Covid aerosols when talking sans mask, they will come up.
You will see even in simulations with poorer masks that aerosols are '' diverted '' away from flying directly into nose and eyes.

Adding a visor is even better of course.

The lab evidence for them is fairly good. Real world, it's not.

I'm a member of usforthemcymru (joined as I agreed with the importance of getting kids back to school) however quickly became apparent this group are largely anti vaxers and covid deniers who want schools to open with no mitigation or safety measures in place - because apparently these are damaging to their kids. I've not seen any evidence of far right links, but I'd say the majority are entitled parents who want children back at school regardless of the dangers this poses to anybody else. They share misinformation and headlines which appear to support their case (but don't actually if anyone bothered to read the information in the articles) and whip each other up into a frenzy with these.

Not sure they're evil, but many are selfish and absolutely nuts!

@Humptydumpty85

I'm a member of usforthemcymru (joined as I agreed with the importance of getting kids back to school) however quickly became apparent this group are largely anti vaxers and covid deniers who want schools to open with no mitigation or safety measures in place - because apparently these are damaging to their kids. I've not seen any evidence of far right links, but I'd say the majority are entitled parents who want children back at school regardless of the dangers this poses to anybody else. They share misinformation and headlines which appear to support their case (but don't actually if anyone bothered to read the information in the articles) and whip each other up into a frenzy with these.

Not sure they're evil, but many are selfish and absolutely nuts!

That’s about it in a nutshell. It’s a shame this thread has been so derailed away from what the actual op posted.

@Temptashun

I've posted it upthread - speech and language problems and other stunted social development. Children need to see faces and expressions as they're growing up so that they can learn what those expressions mean. Just look at the struggles autistic people can face trying to navigate a world where lots is said non verbally but they find it difficult to understand.

There are other factors as well, such as bacterial infections of the teeth (mask mouth) and skin irritations, but they're both pretty rare and not long lasting. If masks worked well, maybe it would be worth those thing? But they don't so it isn't.

Seriously? You have posted zero evidence of harms of mask wearing for older children for their hours in school. Zero. They will not be wearing a mask at home, or out and about their community, and probably not when outside in the playground. There have been lots of real life studies in countries where they have done proper test and trace that show the evidence in support of mask wearing and of both symptomatic and presymptomatic spread. And of children being the index case in households. Unmitigated spread in schools contributes to household transmission and then onwards to community transmission. Especially with the new variant - there is evidence it was spreading in schools amongst children as initially it was over represented in the young!

For everyone's sake, please, engage your critical thinking faculties.

www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

This one is especially good and worth a read. It also has evidence of asymptomatic spread and viral loads in symptomatic versus asymptomatic people
www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Wow! I thought @Temptashun’s first post was a piss take parody with the now well refuted comment about it not being worse than flu. Cannot believe the ridiculousness of those subsequent posts either. Batshit.

Batshit is truly the word

Also - about it being harmless to kids - in my school we are increasingly getting emails to the relevant teachers of X student, that they may not complete much work as they are still suffering from the after effects of Covid. Some of them from last summer.
I would really like to see some research into how many teens and children get long Covid.
We also have at least 2 students who seem to have ended up with lung damage - they were really poorly last term. We are hoping they will heal, but who knows? It's a novel virus!

@Humptydumpty85

I'm a member of usforthemcymru (joined as I agreed with the importance of getting kids back to school) however quickly became apparent this group are largely anti vaxers and covid deniers who want schools to open with no mitigation or safety measures in place - because apparently these are damaging to their kids. I've not seen any evidence of far right links, but I'd say the majority are entitled parents who want children back at school regardless of the dangers this poses to anybody else. They share misinformation and headlines which appear to support their case (but don't actually if anyone bothered to read the information in the articles) and whip each other up into a frenzy with these.

Not sure they're evil, but many are selfish and absolutely nuts!

Thank you for your post, Humpty.

That is fascinating.

I'm not a member and it's just incredibly useful to hear from someone who is (or was).

(And your description makes me just ponder all the more as to why and how a group thus comprised has managed to gain so much access. Baffling.)

I always note with interest those posters citing SEN children with SLT needs as a reason not introduce masks at any time in any school.

I have a SEN child who receives SLT support. I look forward to reading about your support for those children post pandemic. I'm sure you are not just interested in them now for your own ends.

Or you could start by supporting campaigns for clear masks to be sold more widely.

www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/face-mask-covering-clear-transparent-deaf-hidden-disability-exemption-card-coronavirus-a9634151.html?amp

@Temptashun What you're relying on is the fact that most kids are asymptomatic, so few will spread it home, and the fact that most parents with kids of school age will not be seriously ill if they do.

What makes you think asymptomatic kids will not spread the virus? It's been shown that they do and you've agreed that the classroom environment does not allow social distancing. How soon before we are back to square one with high community cases? The vaccination program is coming along but will be months before the benefits of protection will impact on NHS provision. I'm not even talking about the personal risk (although this is important to many) but more the bigger picture of getting overall case numbers down.

www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/01/11/asymptomatic-spread

@thecatfromjapan

Autumn is an Indigo child. She needs to be free Old people dying is Nature's way of ridding us of the spiritually dead

If I met any Us4Them IRL I would get goosebumps, seriously

It’s worth thinking about what asymptomatic means. In adults the three definitive symptoms are given as high temperature, new continuous cough and loss of taste or smell. In fact you aren’t allowed a test without one of these. However we know that many adults with Covid have none of these but do have other symptoms such as runny noses, muscle pains and upset stomachs. Strictly speaking, they are asymptomatic. Children are even less likely to show the “classic” symptoms and might have an upset stomach, a rash and/or feel tired, among other things. They may have Covid and have a high enough viral load to be infectious even though they’re asymptomatic “for Covid”. If in school, they can infect others.

Btw politic-watchers may be interested to know that there is a group very similar to Us4Them in Germany called Familien in der Krise. twitter.com/gabielenadohm/status/1339331780629975040?s=21

This tweet caught my eye in which they are accused of spreading false information about the spread of infection in children with a question about why they have so much heft in politics and the media.

[quote EnemyOfEducationNo1]www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

This one is especially good and worth a read. It also has evidence of asymptomatic spread and viral loads in symptomatic versus asymptomatic people
www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118[/quote]
1st link:

Published 26th June.
Have you seen what's happened to case rates in states with mask mandates since October...?

Second link:

'Overall, direct evidence of the efficacy of mask use is supportive, but inconclusive. Since there are no RCTs, only one observational trial, and unclear evidence from other respiratory illnesses, we will need to look at a wider body of evidence.'

Inconclusive.

Did you even read these studies?

@Justthebeerlighttoguide

In terms of a whole childhood this is a tiny blip and there's not much action in January, peoples are poor after Xmas, worn out and the weather is bad.

There are so me dc at a more critical or time when they should be able to socialise eg 16 year olds who are on that cusp of young adulthood.... Making new social contacts etc.

Even toddlers can socialise in play parks that are open but teens can't do that. But hopefully, if we can endure those for slightly longer, maybe in the summer, we will be in a very different situation?

It's a few months all in and putting it into the perspective over an entire childhood a little blip and, whilst they are going through it with varying degrees... It's not like one child who spends years in hospital, they are all going through this together...

I know, it's only 10% of my 10 year old's life, and it doesn't matter that he has SENs and struggles to keep up in school and is disengaged with remote learning so will be even further behind when he goes back. Plus the deterioration is his hard earned physical skills (dyspraxia) in his extra-curricular sports, atrophying for a year is a total-non issue, and he should just man-up when he's upset that his little brother has caught up to the same level.

It doesn't matter that my 7 year old cries at night that he has no friends because his old group of friends remained connected because of our two tier education system based on the worthiness of parental occupation, and after 5.5 months with only an autistic sibling for company, his social skills have regressed and he didn't reconnect with them in the autumn term.

But hey it's all character building isn't it.
It's not like they matter like the grown-ups is it?

Sarcasm obviously. Of course I'm worried about my children and trying to support them through this indeterminate shit that is making them miserable and removing opportunities to keep up with their peers, and not slip behind or be forgotten.

[quote mrshoho]**@Temptashun What you're relying on is the fact that most kids are asymptomatic, so few will spread it home, and the fact that most parents with kids of school age will not be seriously ill if they do.

What makes you think asymptomatic kids will not spread the virus? It's been shown that they do and you've agreed that the classroom environment does not allow social distancing. How soon before we are back to square one with high community cases? The vaccination program is coming along but will be months before the benefits of protection will impact on NHS provision. I'm not even talking about the personal risk (although this is important to many) but more the bigger picture of getting overall case numbers down.

www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/01/11/asymptomatic-spread[/quote]
This study is computer modelling, with infection rates based on estimates.

If you think that masks are worth the speech and language and other problems, tell me why, with evidence. Perhaps, again, I'm wrong!

What absolute chuntering bollocks is this now? I lived in Japan for years. My kids grew up there. Way before covid was even a glint in its mother’s eye, people have been wearing masks in cold and flu season, in hay fever season and whenever they had sniffles.

Speech and language issues caused by masks do not exist. The 2 or 3 hours I’m out with my toddler in a mask, with others in masks, does not negate all the hours at home where they see my face. Ridiculous to even try that argument when there are plenty of countries that have used masks for years and yet have no higher incidence of speech and language issues than the U.K.

“Diseases” caused by masks, like the fabled lung mould or whatever nonsense that was are also not a concern over there, because it doesn’t happen .