GP giving vaccine to his mate

[LoafEater]

So an acquaintance of mine has told a mutual friend that his friend, who is a GP in out local area, called him up at the end of a vaccine session and invited him down to the surgery to get a 'leftover' vaccine. He went and had it, and is telling people how delighted he is about it.

This acquaintance does not really work (independently wealthy/lazy), is in his mid-50s and has no health issues. I am livid. My brother lives in a care home has not had the vaccine yet, and I know lots of other people, myself included, who are working front line jobs or have health conditions that won't be getting it for a long time yet. I see from the press today that this seems to be happening all over. I suspect, knowing this man, that this was pre-planned rather than a last minute thing.

Don't know why I'm posting this really as there is nothing that can be done about it now, but I found out about this last week and I am still so cross!

Don’t see a problem with this tbh, as loads of others have already said it’s better than it being binned. My parents and brother received their vaccine this very way, as brother’s girlfriend is a nurse and they had a surplus where she works. My parents are early-mid sixties and healthy but I’m glad they’ve got it and it’s a glimmer of hope for our family.

I have another close friend who’s a nurse and she said the staff are always being asked if they still need the vaccine towards the end of the day due to people not turning up, so it’s really not unusual.

For now it’s a bit chaotic but I’m sure systems to use up leftover vaccine will improve over time. For now it’s about not wasting it and if that means that a GPs friend who can definitely come at short notice has it then so be it. I live near a big vaccination centre and have been vaccinated with my first dose using leftover vaccine as they are calling in nearby emergency services workers to use it up. We are guaranteed to turn up and the vaccine doesn’t get wasted. The wastage at the site is in single figures or less every day.

Yes it should be better organised but I’m afraid that many elderly or vulnerable people will struggle to turn up for a vaccine with ten minutes notice, which is what it is here.

I would prioritise ALL key workers in society, before we vaccinate rapists and murderers.

Bizarre argument. Since when has moral worth become the criterion according to which we should decide who should be vaccinated first?

It's not a question of who is most "deserving". Regardless of our moral state, we all deserve a shot at living. That's why we're vaccinating the most vulnerable first...to give everyone the best chance of staying alive. Prisoners should be vaccinated promptly because their state-imposed living conditions make them incredibly vulnerable to Covid and they have limited ability to protect themselves (i.e. can't socially distance, isolate, stay at home). Combine that with being clinically vulnerable for some prisoners and that is an unacceptable level of risk. And, as others have pointed out, that leaves prison staff vulnerable as well.

OP - you have no idea whether this person has a health condition.

I have 2 friends who, I discovered years later, had/have a serious health condition but made a decision not to tell anyone. The first one had cancer, and didn't want to worry anyone, so didn't tell anyone until he got the all clear. The second one had liver disease and didn't want to tell anyone because he was so embarrassed about the fact that he'd brought the disease on himself due to excessive drinking.

I'd rather anybody get it than it be wasted.

So... a GP picks someone he knows will be available and can get to the surgery in time and you think what? It should have been binned?

Waiting lists - they are in the pipeline. Every bloody local facebook page I know of has somewhat desperate practice managers and nurses begging people to just stop phoning emailing and moaning, they are doing what they can, as fast as they can!

This is being done fast, in real time, with no pre-planning to speak of. All that would usually be done before any mass vaccination programme takes place is being done during the first phase... often by the same people who are arranging that phase one, many of whom have only just finished the regualr flu vaccine programme.

@SchadenfreudePersonifiedaden where have you been??? The time limit on one of the vaccines has been all over the news, SM and MN, since December

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Exactly. It would be a really time consuming task to make a list of people who are a) vulnerable b) live close to the centre c) have transport d) are physically fit and mobile and can react quickly given a tem minute deadline and e) aren't ditherers.'

With respect, bollocks. In this technical age there is no need of 'list making' one simply uses computer programmes to identify the priority patient groups.

After months of build up they will surely have the groups identified in their data, so rather than running round various clinic rooms and asking practice staff they want to do a ring round of their family and friends you click on the next priority list and ring them. To not do so is unethical and I hope this is being audited.

Can tell you’ve never worked in the nhs. The computer systems are ancient and would not store this level of info. There aren’t usually surplus staff available to make these lists and phone round. Things have been cut to the bone!

The lack of understanding from people who feel the need to accuse and rant is staggering....

1. the pfizer vaccine has a VERY short life once diluted
2. surgeries do not get to choose which vaccine they get and when - this is all controlled centrally. And usually find out a very short notice.
3. small practices, in fact pretty much all practices have to be part of a larger group of which only one will have the vaccines... but all the surgeries staff the clinics for all patients at that surgery. we may be some distance away from our home surgery.
4. there is not a sudden proliferation of admin/clinical staff.. we are ALL doing this on days off,after work and and weekends. There is very very little spare time/capacity
5. we may have 5 left over vaccines max. One booked clinic runs pretty much into another booked clinic, or finishes very late.
6. we have not had months to plan this. We were told very very little about who what and why this was happening until about a week before it did and it has been utterly utterly manic since
7. you cannot just run the vaccine out to anywhere . The Pfizer one is so unstable you cannot even carry it up or down stairs. The Oxford one (if you can get it) there still seems debate if it can be moved once the bung is punctured. If its not punctured it is not 'left over'.
8. what ever we do is wrong for some people ....

Good, I’m glad it wasn’t wasted. Of course they could have sat down and gone all through their files to find someone more “deserving” 🙄

I'm not sure how you know so much about the financial situation of this friend of a friend's acquaintance - or why it's any of your business - but if you were independently wealthy (hiss!), would you bother going to work?
And if he did go to work, would you also be livid about independently wealthy people taking up jobs that were needed by the deserving poor? (Got to keep chiselling at that chip on your shoulder or resentment levels will drop.)

OMG who can be annoyed about this? How could you put lifesaving vaccine into a bin if you could possibly put it in someone's arm?

There's a vaccine centre across the road from me and with the snow yesterday I imagine there a few unused vaccines. I was tempted to wander over at the end of the day to see (but forgot 🙄).

Actually I wonder if Facebook is the solution?
End of day, FB post goes up, PM us is you can get here within ten minutes for a covid vaccine. DO NOT PHONE if you don't get a reply to PM someone else got there first.

It might not reach the most vulnerable but so what, it's still somebody vaccinated. Trying to reach the most vulnerable at the end of the day might just be too time consuming to be viable.

This is just one of many examples of vaccines being given to people not on the priority list. Press article today in Daily Telegraph
"Senior NHS sources threatened to take disciplinary action against hospitals and GPs across the country offering leftover jabs to relatives and friends of staff despite being outside the top four priority cohorts"

"ministers are understood to be determined that younger people with a connection to NHS staff should not be allowed to “jump the queue” over the vulnerable and elderly.

A Whitehall source said vaccine centres must do more to create "a back up list" of patients and staff within the top four cohorts who can receive jabs at short notice. "

"A senior NHS source said the practice of vaccinating family and friends aged under 70 was against national guidelines and would result in disciplinary action."

I am CEV due to cancer treatment but perfectly able bodied and capable of getting to the GP at short notice. I would be happy to go and wait outside every day at 5pm and I can't be the only one.
They obviously do have a reserve list but it consists of friends and family who want to jump the queue and not those on the priority list.

I also don’t see a problem. The GP likely knew his friend would be able to get there. It’s either that or ring round randomly hoping someone can get there before you’ve run out of time ringing people. He had the leftover vaccine not someone else’s.

If a GP suddenly found they had 50 extra doses they should contact people in the next most vulnerable group first, eg over 75s or over 70s. But if they have one or two vaccines left over they should give to anyone they can get hold of. It’s definitely better than wasting it.

Left over vaccine needs to be used ,ideally, not binned.
But I understand the anger.

A Whitehall source said vaccine centres must do more to create "a back up list" of patients and staff within the top four cohorts who can receive jabs at short notice."

Well cool yes, if they provide the manpower to do so then great, or as usual I guess the government will be expecting people to pull extra time and resources out of their arses to impliment something they should have seen coming. GPs are doing the best they can at the moment in the absence of a standard system for left overs, which is likely to be low single figures for most.

@Phymp

Well I predict if we have a lot of public and press outrage about the 'vaccinate anyone' approach it will result in vaccine going in the bin.

Reading PP about how unstable the vaccine is, so it cannot even be moved upstairs, I now think even more how it is essential it is put into an arm, Uber wealthy or not.
Getting a vulnerable person to a surgery could take hours at short notice.

A Whitehall source said vaccine centres must do more to create "a back up list" of patients and staff within the top four cohorts who can receive jabs at short notice." Whereas MH and others on podiums have said that those administering vaccines are doing all they can to streamline the service and are gearing up to be more efficient as they go... it is, as was said often last wek, "Early days"!

@lunar1

I think people just aren't seeing how the centres work, we are using a closed gym. NHS staff doing overtime and the rest volunteers. We have to close at 8. At 7.20 the last people in the list come through the door.

We get then vaccinated ASAP most leftovers go to people who are with them, either spouses or carers.

After the injection people need to wait 15 minutes. We would know by about 7.35 if there are any leftovers-the most ever has been 3.

So in order for the vaccine to be used we have 10minutes to find someone, get them on the system, take relevant history, consent obtained and injected. They have to be done by 7.45 at the latest.

There is no admin person from the NHS or GP's, just a volunteer to get them registered on a very limited computer system.

We have no phone numbers to contact people to come in and have no intention of making volunteers stay late to start rounding people up.

I'm sure at some point a better system will be in place, but for right now this country is doing a fucking incredible job of getting this vaccine out there, any dose in an arm is better than in the bin.

Excellent explanation lunar - thank you.

When we aren't actually part of the process we don't have any idea of the practicalities involved.

My dad is 78 and getting his vaccine this week. My mum is 71 and not been contacted. Seems she should go with him and then if they have a bit left over they would do her too. Seems like a good idea to save vaccines being wasted.

@Backbee

A Whitehall source said vaccine centres must do more to create "a back up list" of patients and staff within the top four cohorts who can receive jabs at short notice."

Well cool yes, if they provide the manpower to do so then great, or as usual I guess the government will be expecting people to pull extra time and resources out of their arses to impliment something they should have seen coming. GPs are doing the best they can at the moment in the absence of a standard system for left overs, which is likely to be low single figures for most.

My point is that they already do have a reserve list, it's just not the priority groups its friends and family.

My point is that they already do have a reserve list, it's just not the priority groups its friends and family.

No, they can look in their phone and call someone within a few seconds, do you think it's that quick to identify those who haven't had their jabs, are next in line and can reasonably be expected to be able to attend? If the government provide the manpower for such a list, then I'm sure they would happily do the latter.