Riots against lockdown in Europe

[Downriver]

The scenes of young people burning down a COVID testing facility in the Netherlands and burning the Danish PM at a stake in protest against lockdown have really shaken me. Would it happen here? Who is organising this? Fascists? Sometimes I read comments against lockdown on here and I think such a mood is being primed.

I haven’t seen footage but burning buildings / symbols is always extreme

We had some anger in U.K. remember that mob in the park

Small scale to what this sounds like

@SeldomFollowedIt

What *@TheQueef* said.

It’s too cold.

It's certainly not that, it's bloody freezing here in Denmark at the moment! -6c last week at times!

It's a bit pathetic, we've been in hard lockdown for far, far less time in total than the UK was. Everything was still pretty open here while Boris was arseing about with Tiers late last year.

That said, for all that burning an effigy of Mette F wasn't pleasant, it was nothing compared to the riots in the Netherlands by all accounts.

Yup people have just about had it. Anyone who thinks this can go on for much longer is seriously seriously misguided.

Re cost benefit ratio.

Population of UK is about 68 million.

Deaths so far with covid on the death cert 81 K.

That's 1 in every 840 of the population with lockdown. Now probably about half of those would have died anyway this year, but pretty much every graph I've seen of "excess death rate" shows it at abou double normal for the year.

How much worse would it have been without? We don't know but presumably they'd have had to run a triage system. Call an ambulance with heart attack symptoms? Okay, we'll send one. With covid symptoms? Roll your beloved relative onto their front, tell them to do their best with deep breathing, pray and here are the contact details for local funeral directors.

That's what life without lockdown would have looked like. Probably better for the mental health of teens and children, probably only 1 in a 1000 under 45 would have carked it - but it was never going to be a choice politicians would make publicly.

@Oreservoir

If it’s the Netherlands then they’re Dutch, not Danish.

It's two different events, in the Netherlands they burned a Covid test centre, in Denmark they burned an effigy of the PM

I completely understand it. I think I’d be too scared to take part myself for fear of getting hurt but I’m just a regular (financially secure) sahm and even I am fed up to the back teeth of lockdowns and the effect this is going to have on the economy and the effects on our children of being out of school for so long. I’m also scared of the way people are happily giving up their right to see families/drive to a beach/buy a takeout coffee or whatever crackpot thing the dementors are saying were should not be doing now.

Therese people rioting are not “crazy fascists” - they are normal people who’ve had enough.

It is not just mental health declining in adults, that is one thing. But it is just too much to ask to expect parents to allow their children to sink without a trace and be able to do absolutely nothing about it - 18 month wait with CAMHS at the moment. I am not even sure they can cope with the sheer volume of kids that are suffering now.
It is grossly grossly unfair to children to continue to put them through this, given their risks from covid are near zero.

It's a bit pathetic, we've been in hard lockdown for far, far less time in total than the UK was. Everything was still pretty open here while Boris was arseing about with Tiers late last year.

It's funny, as some of my friends were saying we should do what Denmark did without realising a lot of our measures were far more strict. My inlaws have been living a fairly normal life. No huge gatherings but there's never been a time where they're not allowed to meet any one else at all I don't think?

@feelingquitehopeful

It is not just mental health declining in adults, that is one thing. But it is just too much to ask to expect parents to allow their children to sink without a trace and be able to do absolutely nothing about it - 18 month wait with CAMHS at the moment. I am not even sure they can cope with the sheer volume of kids that are suffering now. It is grossly grossly unfair to children to continue to put them through this, given their risks from covid are near zero.

At this point I don't care about myself personally...yeah things are shit, but I'll cope. What I find unbearable is watching my dcs mental health decline and feeling powerless to help. I do my best but I can't provide them with normality...school, friends, sports, clubs. That's all out of my hands. It's like torture

I'd take part.

I'm watching my three teenager dc struggle more each day.

We have a big comfortable house and garden, we're financially stable and I have tried to make thier lockdown as good as I can. Despite this, the mental health of my 2 older ones is deteriorating more each day. They are desperate to see friends, resume hobbies and go back to school. I'm so angry they come bottom of the list.

Bring it on, I'll be there at the front.

@Downriver

UK tends to have riots in the Summer, historically. But it is the fact it is young people that interests me. It is not those under massive stress of wfh and homeschooling etc. I just want to know the demographic, the motives, whether the Q people have got into their heads.

Why would you imagine that young people are not under massive stress?

They're
a) young enough to be missing out on their education - no one thinks online homeschooling / higher education is as good as the in person option. The more academically minded will be very stressed about the impact this will have on their future.
b) old enough to be getting jobs, and are either now likely unemployed, struggling to get their first ever job, or on the Dutch equivalent of furlough. Covid has disproportionately affected young people's job chances - especially when you consider that most people's first job is in hospitality or retail
c) at the time in their life where socialising with peers is particularly important; the mid-late teens where gaining more freedom is a rite of passage.

Plus, as we all know, the devil makes work for idle hands.

The stresses young people are under may be different to the ones you're experiencing, but they're just as real.

At this point I don't care about myself personally...yeah things are shit, but I'll cope. What I find unbearable is watching my dcs mental health decline and feeling powerless to help. I do my best but I can't provide them with normality...school, friends, sports, clubs. That's all out of my hands. It's like torture

Me too. I've been in tears today for the first time. It has to end.

Please please let’s not do this - attacking vaccine centres! Come on people - if we stick together and just hold on for a couple of months we will have some normality - release lockdown too quickly back to square one - is that what you want? - and by the way I have been made redundant due to COVID-19 ! I want to get back to some sort of normal by summer with things opening up so I can get a new job!

Oh well, if young people are fed up then burning the local hospital is totally reasonable. I find the tennis club at the bottom of our road totally irritating, all that extra cars blocking up the road. Maybe we local residents should just get the matches out, rather than writing letters of complaint? Brave new world where we can just torch things when we're pissed off.

I am in the Netherlands (waves at others also there)
I have a couple school-gate type friends who have been posting very strong anti-lockdown stuff on Facebook. One of them has slightly annoyed me because she lives with her husband and child, next door to her very supportive parents who she still sees, although their business has had to shut they are receiving support payments. The petty part of me thinks "are you really finding this so hard. Try being me". Anyway.... the other one has started spamming facebook hard with conspiracy stuff. It started with the great reset and moved on to subliminal messaging in TVs. I think actually, although she is very intelligent generally, she is struggling with lockdow. I think a lot of people are (even those who say it isnt so bad). It has meant everyone has spent more time indoors, browsing the internet and ruminating. And I think thats true across the globe and why we are seeing social unrest everywhere.

@alienspiderbee

It's a bit pathetic, we've been in hard lockdown for far, far less time in total than the UK was. Everything was still pretty open here while Boris was arseing about with Tiers late last year.

It's funny, as some of my friends were saying we should do what Denmark did without realising a lot of our measures were far more strict. My inlaws have been living a fairly normal life. No huge gatherings but there's never been a time where they're not allowed to meet any one else at all I don't think?

Prior to Christmas there was a gathering limit of 10 but it wasn't enforced in private homes.

Now it's down to 5, and sensibly enforced - so the police will break up a party, but you don't here about a family of four getting busted for granny and grandad popping round. We never had a 'only leave your house one hour for exercise' type order though, not legally enforced anyway.

As a family of 5 it's not the most fun limit number for us, but we crack on.

What the government here has done differently is react fast when needed - we were very early into lockdown first time round, and as a Brit I watched in horror as the UK government dithered until the situation was terrible. The net effect was obviously a shorter lockdown. Our younger kids were already back to school two weeks after the UK went into lockdown.

@CaraDuneRedux

Re cost benefit ratio.

Population of UK is about 68 million.

Deaths so far with covid on the death cert 81 K.

That's 1 in every 840 of the population with lockdown. Now probably about half of those would have died anyway this year, but pretty much every graph I've seen of "excess death rate" shows it at abou double normal for the year.

How much worse would it have been without? We don't know but presumably they'd have had to run a triage system. Call an ambulance with heart attack symptoms? Okay, we'll send one. With covid symptoms? Roll your beloved relative onto their front, tell them to do their best with deep breathing, pray and here are the contact details for local funeral directors.

That's what life without lockdown would have looked like. Probably better for the mental health of teens and children, probably only 1 in a 1000 under 45 would have carked it - but it was never going to be a choice politicians would make publicly.

I also think there's been a lot of "copy-cat" behaviour between countries and their leaders. I can just imagine all the squeals of anguish if Boris hadn't locked us down when virtually all other countries were doing it. When one country does it, others are under immense pressure to follow suit, and so it spreads throughout the World.

Unfortunately, the internet has facilitated lockdowns across the globe as it is possible to function (at least temporarily) with internet shopping, working from home, remote learning, etc., during restrictions and lockdowns. If people couldn't do that, I don't think we'd be having lockdowns at all, and probably far less severe restrictions. Quite simply, we'd just be getting on with it, and would have had to accept the collateral damage of lots more deaths, as we'd have no choice. On the bright side, we'd probably be over the worst of it now as it would have spread so quickly and extensively, we could well have herd immunity by now, though would have suffered huge numbers of people having been infected, many more deaths, many more long term illnesses, etc.,

It would be good if World leaders properly engaged with pandemic planners (scientists, etc) to have a proper plan for next time there's a pandemic on the horizon. It does seem the World, well the Western world anyway, was very ill-prepared for this one. The Eastern countries seem to have done far better as they've had more experience and probably took the risks more seriously from previous close escapes.

The unrest everywhere also makes the idea that this is all a global conspiracy to control us ridiculous. Yes of course, some powers that be (and some wannabe powers that be) will try to use the situation to their advantage, but the idea that in order to control us, some higher ups engineered a situation almost guaranteed to generate unpredictable social discontent and disorder is crazy (and historically, as others have said, that is exactly what happened after every pandemic in the past.) It can topple governments, and since no-one knows which it would be a gamble for any government to take.

if we stick together and just hold on for a couple of months we will have some normality

Is that you Boris?

@apalledandshocked

I am in the Netherlands (waves at others also there) I have a couple school-gate type friends who have been posting very strong anti-lockdown stuff on Facebook. One of them has slightly annoyed me because she lives with her husband and child, next door to her very supportive parents who she still sees, although their business has had to shut they are receiving support payments. The petty part of me thinks "are you really finding this so hard. Try being me". Anyway.... the other one has started spamming facebook hard with conspiracy stuff. It started with the great reset and moved on to subliminal messaging in TVs. I think actually, although she is very intelligent generally, she is struggling with lockdow. I think a lot of people are (even those who say it isnt so bad). It has meant everyone has spent more time indoors, browsing the internet and ruminating. And I think thats true across the globe and why we are seeing social unrest everywhere.

Who do you think is doing rioting? Ie demographic

but pretty much every graph I've seen of "excess death rate" shows it at abou double normal for the year

I'm not sure where you're getting your stats from. According to the ONS and Public Health England we're seeing 20% more deaths than a normal year since March 2020 (see chart)

@Porcupineintherough

Oh well, if young people are fed up then burning the local hospital is totally reasonable. I find the tennis club at the bottom of our road totally irritating, all that extra cars blocking up the road. Maybe we local residents should just get the matches out, rather than writing letters of complaint? Brave new world where we can just torch things when we're pissed off.

Perhaps the young would react better if people took their very real concerns more seriously.

Take Universities, students are having a horrid time and paying £15k for a very poor experience. Unis all over the country aren't taking their concerns seriously. There are something like 40+ rent strikes where students are trying to get discounts/refunds for their Uni-owned accommodation that they're not allowed to use. College based Unis are still charging "college" fees (typically £50 or so) which students were told is to pay for college-based social activities, common room entertainment, etc - all that's stopped, common rooms are locked, but Unis are still threatening court action for students who've not paid their college fees. £9k per year tuition fees for what is basically watching last years recorded lectures. It's no surprise Uni students are angry. They've been lied to and treated as cash cows.

I can understand people rioting when they are protesting against political decisions. But protesting against lockdown is futile. What do these rioters want? For lockdown to end and for everyone to go about their normal lives? With potentially millions of deaths and zero health services?

@tillyandmilly

Please please let’s not do this - attacking vaccine centres! Come on people - if we stick together and just hold on for a couple of months we will have some normality - release lockdown too quickly back to square one - is that what you want? - and by the way I have been made redundant due to COVID-19 ! I want to get back to some sort of normal by summer with things opening up so I can get a new job!

Come on, we started with 3 weeks to flatten the curve. With it just be another couple of months? How much longer do you think is reasonable?

if we stick together

This narrative is so shit, please avoid it, maybe you didn't think it, but it's been massively overused by people who actually mean "do what we want, we will make no sacrifice for you" that it has completely the wrong meaning to people who are only being harmed by restrictions.