Is there a reason we are the country that's been worst hit economically and had the worst death rates

[velveteenrabbittales]

Trying to work out why, do we have a more elderly and unhealthy population? Has the whole thing been managed badly? Should we have resisted lockdown? We've ended up with the double whammy why is it?

This is simply not true. The majority of European countries had imposed a lockdown by the 12th of March

No they had not, only Italy had locked down by then. See my above post

My friend in USA said their figures reflected the stupidity of the nation.

Yep UK behind the curve in everything. EXCEPT VACCINATION. Germany's track and trace isn't doing it much good right now I'd say.

"We've got the 40th highest BMI according to the WHO. So it can't just be that"

Is the combination of higher average age population and higher average BMI important - as some of the countries that are higher up the BMI list than the UK may also be younger overall? 'International travel hub' may also be a large part of the explanation.

@Flaxmeadow I don't know where you're getting your information. Ireland announced restrictions on the 12th, I know that because I live here. Our Taoiseach was in Washington at the time and announced it from there. My friend was due to get married on the 14th and it was cancelled.

A raft of other countries did the same. There was a thread on here at the time about the UK's lack of action as they stood out like a sore thumb, and there was huge concern here due to our open border with the North.

A tiny part is down to statistical rigour, and a tiny part demographics.

The vast majority of the avoidable heartache of every type has been down to ideology. Late lockdown = longer lockdown was obvious and stated by WHO right at the outset.

Encourage rather than mandate was actually working until Dominic Cummings. At that point they permanently lost trust of many, but actually only lost the compliance of a few. Now they are blaming the public rather than their own dithering they are losing more.

And they decided teachers were the 2020s equivalent of the miners in the 1980s. Instead of backing teachers and equipping children and schools for decent remote learning, they fuelled a media feeding frenzy and even now major broadcasters are getting away with showing VT of padlocked gates and empty classes.

Almost all coverage now is propaganda and the vaccination programme is being trumpeted as a huge success. The reality is we won’t know for some weeks whether it has worked in its short term aims, and we appear to have learned nothing to ensure we are further forward if it fails.

I don’t think there’s great scientific evidence to back up advising the population to start taking vitamins and sleeping on their stomachs (I have never heard this).

My DH was in ICU with covid. The nurses kept me updated and one of the things they reiterated was 'sleep prone'. Keeping him prone was vital. However he could not sleep prone because he is morbidly obese, so they kept him on his side which was better than keeping him supine.

Here is your scientific evidence:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7402434/

Zinc= big time immune system booster
Vitamin D3... the jury is still out on this one, however, there is a correlation between ICU admissions and covid patients suffering vitamin D3 deficiency.

DH's morbid obesity, however, played an enormous role in his severe symptoms and hospital admission. This does not mean that I am saying thin, healthy people don't die of covid. But DH noticed himself that every single patient in his bay was obese, like him.

Again, your scientific evidence to back up my claim:

"Obesity causes mechanical compression of the diaphragm, lungs, and chest cavity, which can lead to restrictive pulmonary damage. Furthermore, excess fat decreases total respiratory system compliance, increases pulmonary resistance, and reduces respiratory muscle strength"

We have a fat population (40th in the world) and a free healthcare service which enables people to live longer.

We also have a hue service industry/other industry that has been propped up by the Government through Furlough - many other countries haven't done that. The WFH mandate has crippled the economy as well - people not commuting into the cities and getting lunch/dinner/drinks and going out at lunch to spend money on clothes will have been a big factor. In a lot of countries people are going into work still.

There are also countries where COVID-19 'doesn't exist' and they're carrying on like normal.

I imagine the fact that we're not China and we haven't locked people inside their house to squash the virus (and we've let them go on holiday in the summer...not broken up parties etc) has something to do with it!

Basically; lax enforcement, Furlough, large service industry, selfish bastards who want to see their mates and an ageing population.

I'm more worried about what comes next...

This is a good article @flaxmeadow outlining the situation as of 12th March. It references action taken by other European countries in contrast with the UK:

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/health-expert-brands-uks-coronavirus-response-pathetic

An ineffectual and indecisive government, poor leadership from politicians, patchy enforcement of lockdown regulations.

Flaxmeadow I don't know where you're getting your information. Ireland announced restrictions on the 12th, I know that because I live here. Our Taoiseach was in Washington at the time and announced it from there. My friend was due to get married on the 14th and it was cancelled.

A raft of other countries did the same. There was a thread on here at the time about the UK's lack of action as they stood out like a sore thumb, and there was huge concern here due to our open border with the North

All major European countries "announced restrictions" before they locked down. The UK did too.

There was no lack of action by the UK. The UK locked down at about the same rate as every other country. Germany was different though because it's a federation and so locked down piecemeal, similar to the USA

Sorry, I should say 'position prone'...
But if you are at home and your covid symptoms aren't worrying enough to seek medical advice but uncomfortable enough to cause you anxiety, I would say, sleep prone in bed. I did this and found it extremely helpful when my chest felt tight. Though I was pretty much asymptomatic. I had two days of a tight chest and dry cough and that was it. I took my vit D3, my zinc lozenges, did my Olbas baths and eucalyptus steams, drank lemon with manuka. But probably, I was just lucky, whereas DH nearly died, it was so close. I'm a tall, thin cyclist and walker. DH is obese and entirely sedentary. He is a GP who has been seeing patients face to face (likely where he picked up covid). So there's risk because of his job and the fact that he is obese.

This is a good article @flaxmeadow outlining the situation as of 12th March. It references action taken by other European countries in contrast with the UK:

Sorry, but I cant take an article about a 21st century pandemic seriously, that begins "Britain is behaving like 19th century colonialists".

There was no lack of action by the UK.

Why were the scientific community up in arms over the lack of action then?

www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-hundreds-of-scientists-accuse-government-of-risking-lives-over-covid-19-plan-11957715

I suppose you'll tell me that this never happened either

I’m going to be blunt - by and large this is a disease of fatties and the metabolically unhealthy and we are one of the fattest nations on the planet

Had we begged people to lose weight in March and shut production of shite food we could well be in a different place

@PurpleDaisies

I think the ‘go and enjoy yourselves now, for there’s a tough winter ahead’ was the preparation

Boris was not talking about tough winter to come. It was all go and spend.

I agree. I think the govt were deluded enough to think they'd beaten covid in the Summer, hence encouraging foreign holidays, lower VAT on hospitality and tourism, Rishi's stupid "eat out to spread covid" scheme, etc. No thought whatsoever as to covid infections rising again, which they started doing in August, and then schools/Unis back in September with no precautions, just at a time of rising infections. It was as if the MPs, senior civil servants, etc came back from their Summer holidays thinking they'd cured it, then covid came back and hit them, and there was no preparation/plan etc. Should have opened things up a lot more slowly in Summer and kept some things closed for longer.

Current government is shit.

Many previous governments have also been shit.

Why were the scientific community up in arms over the lack of action then

Really? Then why does the article you linked have the following disclaimer
"Many of the scientists are drawn from mathematics rather than medicine with very few specialists in infection control and no leading experts in the spread of disease."
"Not all of the academics who have signed the letter are scientists and there are also a number of PHD students on the list of signatories"

I suppose you'll tell me that this never happened either

Its meaningless, see above

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

I’m going to be blunt - by and large this is a disease of fatties and the metabolically unhealthy and we are one of the fattest nations on the planet

Had we begged people to lose weight in March and shut production of shite food we could well be in a different place

So why have Spain, Italy, etc., been just as badly affected as they're supposed to be healthier countries due to the mediteranean diet?

We have a shite government

We have the 33rd highest obesity rates and the 40th highest BMI.

@pointyshoes

Our death rate per 100,000 of population is virtually the same as Italy.

However, the U.K. is also very densely populated, the second most obese country in the EU (I know we’ve left now!!), and has a relatively high proportion of residents from different ethnic backgrounds who appear to be more at risk. Also the U.K. is a international business/travel hub with more overseas visitors than many other countries.

Different countries have different systems to record deaths - the U.K. uses the “positive test within last 28 days” method, other countries don’t.

These factors alone make comparisons impossible.

The UK doesn't have one city in the top 40 most densely populated cities in Europe. It also has a pretty young median age population when compared to countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal.

Sorry, but I cant take an article about a 21st century pandemic seriously, that begins "Britain is behaving like 19th century colonialists".

Christ almighty. Talk about ignoring the point.

Clearly you have your own version of reality where the government can do no wrong.

How about Time magazine, or are they lying too?

www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5823382/britain-coronavirus-response/%3famp=true

So why have Spain, Italy, etc., been just as badly affected as they're supposed to be healthier countries due to the mediteranean diet?

But but but the continentals are all healthy beautiful exotic types who can never do any wrong, they sip interesting wines outside quaint tavernas, in fabulous mountainous scenery and we can hire them as cheap nannies and show off to our friends how sophisticated and liberal we are, while the Brits are all ugly horrid gammon evil Brexit types, living in squalid post industrial places like Rotherham and Wolverhampton, whose ancestors were probably evil slave owning colonial types, or so the story goes

Christ almighty. Talk about ignoring the point.

I'm not ignoring the point. Going by the opening I just dont have any faith in the article. Its ridiculous even by Guardian standards

Clearly you have your own version of reality where the government can do no wrong.

No they've made mistakes but then so have other countries. I could point out some mistakes Sapin made, or Italy or France but what's the point.

How about Time magazine

Shrugs

The UK locked down at the same rate of infection as other countries in Europe. You can bash it all you like, but it's a fact