Can we unlock the schools at start of Feb?

[MeandT]

I'm totally supportive of the lockdown BUT by the end of next week, case numbers nationally will be the same as they were at end of November. Hospital admissions are falling again.

Rather than going back into tiers with the shops and food pubs open (where all the spreading happened in December), can we not issue all the teachers with N95 masks (and vaccines for the clinically vulnerable), make all the kids wear triple layer face masks all the time, and just get on with the important job of educating this country's kids in person? Starting again 1st of Feb.

AIBU to ask if we can send the kids back as soon as we hit the case rate we unlocked at on 2nd December?

IABU= no way, the cases will shoot up too quickly again, even if they all wear masks all day.

IANBU = yes, get them back before half term, the only reason it went nuts in December was because everyone was out Christmas shopping and seeing family.

@RandomGrammarPun

I believe that roughly 75% of the people in ITU are NOT in the four top groups for the vaccine (ie the over 70s or the ECV). Those groups are the most likely to die but NOT the most likely to be in ITU for weeks, preventing the NHS carrying out much other healthcare.

So, we can't just open up society as normal once just those groups are vaccinated. And that includes schools which are clearly the biggest vectors if they're fully open.

No, the rate in schools largely reflects the infection rate in the community. They are not the cause of large-scale outbreaks on their own.

What might be effective in getting numbers right down is pretty much shutting the borders and putting really strict travel restrictions in place between different areas of the UK. For the long term, Australia-style.

I'm not calling for it though, I think that ship has sailed and also recognise all the problems and hardships it would cause.

It may well inform who’s back first though. Beyond just childcare reasons - I think these are low, esp as KW already in.

It’s more that the disparity for early years online v in class is greater.

@RandomGrammarPun

I believe that roughly 75% of the people in ITU are NOT in the four top groups for the vaccine (ie the over 70s or the ECV). Those groups are the most likely to die but NOT the most likely to be in ITU for weeks, preventing the NHS carrying out much other healthcare.

So, we can't just open up society as normal once just those groups are vaccinated. And that includes schools which are clearly the biggest vectors if they're fully open.

@Carlislemumof4 this is why you and your children will have to endure it for longer.

It is also why myself and my DH as secondary teachers will also have to endure not seeing our disabled DC for months on end in his care home. Seeing hundreds of other people's kids in the November mockdown and not my own for over 6 weeks nearly finished me off. The only way I am coping with not seeing DC at the moment is to know I'm not going into the Covid Petri dish that were secondary schools last term.

Monkey, how awful

@LickEmbysmiling thank you x

No, the rates in schools did not reflect the rates in the community.

Secondary school pupils were the most infected subset of the population by some margin for most of the autumn term. Driving it, not reflecting. Considering not a single other place in society is as crowded when fully open, with no mitigations in place, as schools, it would be absurd to even guess otherwise, without the actual data showing that this was true.

@monkeytennis97 I'm sorry to hear of your circumstances, you can forget patronising mine though.

I've supported one of my children through a nervous breakdown pre-pandemic, I will not sit back and watch my other DC develop MH problems purely as a result of this second closure without speaking up for all children this is affecting.

Closing schools is not the answer to this pandemic

Well it is, that’s why they’ve done it. It’s a last resort.

[quote Carlislemumof4]@monkeytennis97 I'm sorry to hear of your circumstances, you can forget patronising mine though.

I've supported one of my children through a nervous breakdown pre-pandemic, I will not sit back and watch my other DC develop MH problems purely as a result of this second closure without speaking up for all children this is affecting.

Closing schools is not the answer to this pandemic[/quote]
I don't think monkey was being patronising.

Closing schools is not the answer for you but it is for others.

There is no one size fits all and no one's circumstances trump anyone elses.

@Wheresmykimchi exactly. School closures have the biggest reduction value on the R rate. It had to happen. The protection of life trumps education in a once in a century crisis.

@Itisasecret

Well it is, that’s why they’ve done it. It’s a last resort.

No, it's an emergency measure while the vaccines are rolled out and the hospitals are under so much pressure. So they should reopen in a few weeks once millions more have been vaccinated.

The protection of life trumps education in a once in a century crisis.

I'm so so sorry Monkeytennis97, that's an awful situation for you. I just don't think it's a simple as the above. I understand why the decision has been made but we don't know what the cost will be yet. How many lives lost to suicide, children trapped in abusive homes with no escape, long term MH problems. Clearly it wasn't a last resort too, border closures have come after.
Anyway, most people have accepted the fact that schools have been closed. The argument is that they need to be opened asap and that this can't just drag on...we can't keep schools closed, it's just catastrophic for children.

Vaccines will not open schools. It’s why they were clear to try and get that through this evening. People have pinned their hopes falsely on vaccines.

Vaccines are not going to stop people needing ICU and hospitals. Vaccines are not going to stop and overwhelmed NHS cancelling cancer care. Vaccines are to stop the old and vulnerable dying. The majority of people in ICU are not inline for the vaccine.

@Wheresmykimchi The tone was clear.

Mental health issues, once developed, can last for a lifetime. It is vital children return to the classroom at the earliest opportunity.

@TheOtherMaryBerry it is, I agree, awful for children (and their parents). However it would be utter stupidity to go back as before (in September) with the 'all back at once'. Utter madness before the adult population have had both doses of the vaccine and risks further mutations.

[quote Carlislemumof4]@Wheresmykimchi The tone was clear.

Mental health issues, once developed, can last for a lifetime. It is vital children return to the classroom at the earliest opportunity.[/quote]
Right. In your opinion.

Monkey is coming at it from wanting to have care homes accessed.

Everyone's got their own.

[quote Monkeytennis97]@TheOtherMaryBerry it is, I agree, awful for children (and their parents). However it would be utter stupidity to go back as before (in September) with the 'all back at once'. Utter madness before the adult population have had both doses of the vaccine and risks further mutations.[/quote]
They also highlighted this too. They were not risking it, as letting it run rampant as it did when schools were open, would jeopardise the vaccine. It’s almost like people just don’t want to hear it. I get that, but it’s not helping anyone.

@Wheresmykimchi

[quote Monkeytennis97]@Wheresmykimchi [/quote]
Back atcha

No they can’t go back whilst cases are still so high.
Community transmission WILL rise when schools go back and that can only be acceptable if it is staring from a much lower base than we are at currently. Otherwise, the rise,from a high starting base will lead to infections being much higher than the peak we just passed.

I get that people don’t like having their kids at home and kids want to go to school. However, if they go back too soon, there will be the need for another lockdown. It is better to keep this one going for another 3-4 weeks beyond Feb half term, than to go back and within 4 weeks it’s all going horribly wrong again.

Look at the hospitalisation figures and deaths. Look at the transmission levels. They are all still really high and need to come down substantially. Over 1500 people die every day. If the kids go back to school there will be a longer period of that happening and it’s not acceptable even if you don’t like having your kids at home or they want to go to school.

@Itisasecret

Vaccines will not open schools. It’s why they were clear to try and get that through this evening. People have pinned their hopes falsely on vaccines.

Vaccines are not going to stop people needing ICU and hospitals. Vaccines are not going to stop and overwhelmed NHS cancelling cancer care. Vaccines are to stop the old and vulnerable dying. The majority of people in ICU are not inline for the vaccine.

I fully understand how vaccines work.

Coronavirus will continue to spread as ordinary flu and colds do. Once the most vulnerable are vaccinated however, Covid becomes less of a threat to life and such draconian measures as lockdown and school closures are no longer acceptable.

Clearly you don’t.

@TheKeatingFive

Preschool and infant age children need to be together. They need to be learning social skills and engaging with teachers. They're missing out on a huge developmental stage

Exactly. My 6 year old is getting very little out of online learning. It just isn’t the right media for that age group, which is pretty obvious to anyone with even the slightest knowledge of small children.

But infant schools ARE seeing issues with covid. Hence they aren't fully open right now.

I teach in an infant school. As said previously, 3/4 of the staff, many parents and a number of children tested positive in October/November. I was in hospital as a result and off work for 7 weeks. Colleagues have struggled afterwards and several have lingering health issues since covid.

Whilst we would all prefer schools to be open fully as normal, is it fair on school staff, children and their families (especially more vulnerable,ones) to be in an environment where they is no social distancing, no masks, and no real protective elements bar opening the windows and being sat cold all day?

Plus you’re missing the huge point. Almost deliberately. The slogan isn’t about protecting life, it’s the NHS. So that is why your point about the vaccines doesn’t stand up. The lockdown isn’t about ‘Covid death’. It’s about protecting life via the NHS still being there for the millions of other curable health conditions.

I don't know where the information about Italy is from but I'm a high school teacher in Italy and we've been online since last March in my region.
High schools are open in a few regions, but on a blended basis. That's the government expectation, but the regional governors by and large are refusing to open up at all.
Our latest regional announcement came tonight (the opening up with 50% was supposed to happen on Monday) it will be another week of full time online, then from the beginning of Feb if things continue to improve, the 50% thing kicks in and the parents will decide whether to send kids in or not. The schools did open very briefly in September. DD got 10 days.
Masks will be obligatory as they are everywhere.
We vacillate between being a yellow and orange zone. (I guess red zone is tier 4)