417 dead

[Standandwait]

417 people under 40 have died of CV in hospital in England from when the pandemic began to Jan 16, according to the NHS. Another 4,081 under 60 have died.

This is out of 60,921 total deaths NHS England recorded; by comparison, gov.uk counts 89,261 deaths total in England to Jan. 17, but they don’t break it down by age group. The quickest glance at deaths in care homes suggests those basically explain the difference in the two totals. I assume it's possible to come up with comparable figures for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, too -- I just happen to live in England and got tired.

Lord knows, I'm not looking to "kill granny." I have a lot of dearly beloved family over 80, and am closer than not to 60. I also have a disabled child, which means I know not only him but many other very vulnerable families. I have followed lockdown rules quite faithfully, myself.

But I really, really am beginning to have grave reservations about locking down again and again. If you feel otherwise, please talk me around.

This is just such a naive opinion. Do you really think that all threats can be overcome just by being better prepared?

I don’t understand how being better prepared could possibly be a bad thing. Look at how went into this pandemic. We were absolutely not ready even though there had been scares before with swine flu etc.

Could you explain it in simple terms for the benefit of “people like me”?

@NikeDeLaSwoosh of course people get sick but it is very unusual that a 10% of the adult population of a country develop chronic illness as a result of a virus. Or that 1% of the population die as a result of a virus. How can any healthcare system manage those numbers without these measures to prevent it affecting the entire population?

Apparently it isn't before their time, it's the end of their natural life span. Nike doesn't agree with medical treatment.

I think I read that 26,000 of the "Covid" deaths are people who contracted Covid whilst in hospital for an unrelated issue.
If correct this truly indicates why the wails of lock up the vulnerable and let the rest of us get on with our lives won't work. We cannot protect the vulnerable if COVID is left to run freely though the healthy population. Plus of course a fair few of the healthy won't be healthy for a long while or maybe never.

How do you know the three others? Are they people known to you before COVID? That’s an incredibly unlucky group of acquaintances or friends.
A mother from the school (acquaintance), and 2 friends I know different ways, and actually 2 facebook friends from book groups now I think about it. And all of them have long covid. People who are suffering with something generally seek each other out, so for eg if you suddenly came down with something people would contact you with their experiences so that could be why you don't people? Or I could just be unlucky. I feel unlucky!!!!!

Yes I wonder how many younger people are dying from cancer and other conditions because they aren’t getting the treatment they need
This makes it sounds if there are no cancer treatments in any hospitals which is not the case. Although I don't know anyone under 40 with cancer, my friend was receiving chemo throughout the pandemic until her recent death and my cousin has had 3 cancer surgeries and monthly in-person check-ups and scans.

Yep my friend who has cancer has had no interruption to her treatments. Neither has my father in law who is the wrong side of 70.
I some people only give a damn about cancer patients when it suits their agenda. Hell Lord Sumption told a stage 4 cancer patient that her life was less valuable than a younger person

[quote Indecisive12]@NikeDeLaSwoosh of course people get sick but it is very unusual that a 10% of the adult population of a country develop chronic illness as a result of a virus. Or that 1% of the population die as a result of a virus. How can any healthcare system manage those numbers without these measures to prevent it affecting the entire population?[/quote]
10% of people infected.

Your claim that 10% of the adult population experience this is simply untrue.

Likewise, globally, around 1% of people infected have died.

However, More healthy under 60s have died on the roads since the start of the pandemic than have died of Covid. Your suggestion that a random 1% of the whole population have died is deliberately twisting the facts

@NikeDeLaSwoosh do you actually know those 988 who died in RTA were healthy. Ie does not have a single health condition however minor. No migraines, previous broken bones, asthma, High blood pressure, female genital ptoapse, dermatitis etc etc

[quote Northernsoulgirl45]@NikeDeLaSwoosh do you actually know those 988 who died in RTA were healthy. Ie does not have a single health condition however minor. No migraines, previous broken bones, asthma, High blood pressure, female genital ptoapse, dermatitis etc etc[/quote]
Sorry, I’m not sure I follow?

If you don't believe Twitter you can get ibfo from ONS.

Hopefully all, or at least most, of those 417 people who died, were loved and wanted by their own somebody. Every number is a person, an individual, a character, we should all be doing everything we can to keep each other safe.

@Icenii

It's always granny isn't it. A fraile, little old lady that has become the symbol of disdain for many people. Never grandad.

Grandad's already dead.

What I am saying is that you are happy to discount the deaths of anyone who had a pre existing health condition who died with COVID. So you should compare like with like and discount everyone who died in an RTA with a pre existing condition.
Or compare the 988 with the total who died without but you won't of course because that doesn't suit your argument

@Bl3ss3dm0m

Hopefully all, or at least most, of those 417 people who died, were loved and wanted by their own somebody. Every number is a person, an individual, a character, we should all be doing everything we can to keep each other safe.

We are all inherently not safe though.

We’re biological beings, and very fragile ones at that.

Death is something that will happen to literally every single one of us. It cannot be prevented.

Continuing to chuck money at the concept of death, in the hope that it will go away is just madness.

@Northernsoulgirl45

What I am saying is that you are happy to discount the deaths of anyone who had a pre existing health condition who died with COVID. So you should compare like with like and discount everyone who died in an RTA with a pre existing condition. Or compare the 988 with the total who died without but you won't of course because that doesn't suit your argument

How does having a pre-existing condition render you more likely to die on the road?

@NikeDeLaSwoosh - well, alcoholism, narcolepsy, fatigue, reckless personality, stroke, heart attack, poor eyesight, and quite a lot of other conditions spring to mind when it comes to increased risk of rta, actually!

@NikeDeLaSwoosh - anyway, we’re all fragile, biological human beings, after all, so why rescue us from car crashes?

[quote Walkaround]@NikeDeLaSwoosh - well, alcoholism, narcolepsy, fatigue, reckless personality, stroke, heart attack, poor eyesight, and quite a lot of other conditions spring to mind when it comes to increased risk of rta, actually![/quote]
Yes, because that’s the relevant point.

I was anorexic in my youth and hospitalised. That counts as an underlying health condition.

Nike you repeatedly talk about the very elderly and their taking up space in ICUs etc. But it's not that age groups who form the vast majority of people in ICUs with covid at present. It's people in their 40s, 50s and 60s. And if lockdown were eased there would be exponentially more of those people plus people who needed medical treatment for other things, unable to access it due to sheer numbers.

It's not just about deaths. I actually agree with you that we should face up to the reality of death and have that conversation, but I just don't see that as the main issue here. The main issue is simply the overwhelming of our health system and that feeds into all levels of society.

We are not chucking money at the concept of death. We are trying to prevent society breaking down.

[quote Walkaround]@NikeDeLaSwoosh - anyway, we’re all fragile, biological human beings, after all, so why rescue us from car crashes?[/quote]
We do because QALYs

I have to say though, this pandemic is making me question the whole idea of healthcare.

In the pre antibiotic era, we had a natural thinning of the population in the form of infant mortality, death in childbirth and people not surviving cancer etc.

Whilst this was undeniably awful, it did mean we had no issues around climate change, overpopulation etc.

I do wonder if accepting those deaths as a normal part of life might have been a better strategy for the long term survival of our species.

A few deaths along the way might be better than the wholesale extinction of our species that I think is pretty inevitable given our abuse of the planet.

NB. Neither my DD nor I would have survived her birth without modern medicine, so I am kind of speaking from a position of hypocrisy here.

But it's not that age groups who form the vast majority of people in ICUs with covid at present. It's people in their 40s, 50s and 60s

Do you have a source for this? A lot of people make this point, but nobody has actually offered any data that supports it.

On the other hand the NHS’s own figures confirm both that the average age of a Covid death is 82, and furthermore only 377 healthy people under 60 have died.

These Actual, published stats really don’t support your claim.

I’m happy to be proven wrong though.

I have to say though, this pandemic is making me question the whole idea of healthcare.

No kidding.

[quote Walkaround]@NikeDeLaSwoosh - anyway, we’re all fragile, biological human beings, after all, so why rescue us from car crashes?[/quote]
And why try to treat cancer? After all, it is expensive, and 1/3 of us can expect cancer to happen so it is a normal part of life.

Here you go. Statistics for those in hospital/ICU. Not the 85+ in ICU, as you can see.

And the '377' argument is an ableist one without any thought for the fact that most 'underlying conditions' are not ones that put people at death's door. Glaucoma? Psoriasis? Do people with those not count? People with a broken femur?

None of those in the 377. It's a shockingly poor piece of rhetoric without foundation or compassion.