417 dead

[Standandwait]

417 people under 40 have died of CV in hospital in England from when the pandemic began to Jan 16, according to the NHS. Another 4,081 under 60 have died.

This is out of 60,921 total deaths NHS England recorded; by comparison, gov.uk counts 89,261 deaths total in England to Jan. 17, but they don’t break it down by age group. The quickest glance at deaths in care homes suggests those basically explain the difference in the two totals. I assume it's possible to come up with comparable figures for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, too -- I just happen to live in England and got tired.

Lord knows, I'm not looking to "kill granny." I have a lot of dearly beloved family over 80, and am closer than not to 60. I also have a disabled child, which means I know not only him but many other very vulnerable families. I have followed lockdown rules quite faithfully, myself.

But I really, really am beginning to have grave reservations about locking down again and again. If you feel otherwise, please talk me around.

“ It is the patients themselves who should have made these end of life decisions before they even reached this point.”
@NikeDeLaSwoosh - I presume you don’t mean the person who fell off the ladder, had an unexpected stroke, needed kidney dialysis, had severe asthma, etc, should have offered to be left to die if the NHS was a bit busy?...

@Itisasecret

It’s not the dying you have to worry about. Most of the people in ITU are younger....

Yes not just this. ICU is needed for other things not just Covid. Winter pressures are also here right now. We would run out of beds for any type of illness. It’s not fair on all of the hospital staff.

Things are so bad schools shutting down. We don’t have a choice OP. I think if people was to work in a hospital they wouldn’t be saying such silly things!

Stay at homer

How do you know the three others? Are they people known to you before COVID? That’s an incredibly unlucky group of acquaintances or friends.

I know several who’ve had covid - both my husband and I work in the NHS, so you can imagine. Of my daughter’s four godparents, for example, two have had covid and neither of them work in the NHS.

I don’t know of one single person with residual difficulties, so it’s astonishing when I come in here and read that people know so many others suffering long term ill effects.

Of course it would be stupid for us to overwhelm the NHS now, but it's my understanding the NHS is here to look after us, not the other way around. Our Tory governments appear to have forgotten that.

What on earth are you talking about?

@Walkaround

“ It is the patients themselves who should have made these end of life decisions before they even reached this point.” *@NikeDeLaSwoosh* - I presume you don’t mean the person who fell off the ladder, had an unexpected stroke, needed kidney dialysis, had severe asthma, etc, should have offered to be left to die if the NHS was a bit busy?...

No, I mean people in their 80s and 90s receiving invasive and aggressive treatment.

As a society, we need to have a reassessment of our feelings about end of life care. The status quo, I.e. keeping people alive as long as we possibly can, isn’t sustainable, and somethings got to give.

@Itisasecret

Do you have a source for that claim? I haven’t seen any data that confirm it, and would be interested to see where you’ve got it from.

@RomeoLikedCapuletGirls

It's always been 'women and children first' when there are limited lifeboats and society cares much less about violence against men - watch the social experiments where people laugh at girlfriends being violent to their boyfriends but then intervene when the situation is reversed.

Yes it always shocks me when people laugh about assaults on men in pranks. However I’d say that it’s more that people believe men can take care of themselves, not that men aren’t valuable. Although laughing at any assault makes me wince.

And also, laughing at women being beaten, is a bit close to the bone because domestic violence against women is a real issue in many societies.

About the “women and children” thing, it should make you feel better that this actually is a bit of a myth that started with the Titanic. Someone did a study of all the civilian ship disasters from the 19th and early 20th centuries and found that the w and c children policy only applied to half the titanic and another incident but that such a policy wasn’t standard. As such men were more likely to survive in civilian incidents.

I think the “women and children” thing has caught on in the media because it sounds heroic but also in war reporting you will hear “xx women and children” died to show the civilian casualties as that group is far less likely to be soldiers involved in actual fighting. But yes, I always questioned it as a child. It’s as if only that group mattered.

That's a fair point actually. People are perhaps less likely to help a man as they assume he can defend himself.

Like you, I don't get why people find it funny. My friend was in an abusive relationship which he stayed in for far too long as he said he loved her, and also because she'd apologise and blame it on her difficult childhood, promising she'd change (she never did).

I remember him telling me about the one time she attacked him outside a pub - accused him of flirting after he'd spoken to a female workmate he bumped into at the bar. She had previously competed in thai kickboxing so was quite handy (and also athletically built from strength training and deadlifts etc) whilst he was a bit of wimp to be honest.

He said she kneed him in the groin and as he doubled over she grabbed the back of his head and smashed her knee into his nose, giving him a huge nosebleed. She then held onto him and kept punching him with her free hand. He said he was aware whilst it was happening that people were laughing and filming it on their phones. Eventually he managed to push her over, at which point a group of lads came running over. He said he didn't wait around to see what they were going to do.

10% long Covid.
I have pupils who have long Covid from may and June. Healthy, football/hockey team pupils.

As a society, we need to have a reassessment of our feelings about end of life care. The status quo, I.e. keeping people alive as long as we possibly can, isn’t sustainable, and somethings got to give.

I do agree with this point in some contexts, but it seems many people are happy to let elderly people die so they can get back down the pub again.

It doesn't seem to matter how many times the government repeat "protect the NHS", some people clearly still don't get the knock on effect of Covid patients filling NHS beds, being successfully treated and discharged has on other people who needed an NHS admission for other life threatening issues.

I think I read that 26,000 of the "Covid" deaths are people who contracted Covid whilst in hospital for an unrelated issue.

Other people will have died because they couldn't be admitted for treatment in time due to Covid patients classed as being in emergency need of the beds/attention from NHS staff.

I suppose though that some people just can't see/don't care about the bigger picture, just what affects their own lives.

Of course it would be stupid for us to overwhelm the NHS now, but it's my understanding the NHS is here to look after us, not the other way around.

OP could explain what this odd statement is meant to mean? The NHS is the health service of the nation, who if not the nation is supposed to look after it? The NHS is not some kind of benevolent sentient being as you appear to be saying.

@EnemyOfEducationNo1

10% long Covid. I have pupils who have long Covid from may and June. Healthy, football/hockey team pupils.

Which I agree is very unfortunate, but again falls well within the bounds of what we can reasonably expect from our lives.

Nobody is owed a long, healthy life. We need to be a lot more realistic about our expectations.

@SATSmadness

It doesn't seem to matter how many times the government repeat "protect the NHS", some people clearly still don't get the knock on effect of Covid patients filling NHS beds, being successfully treated and discharged has on other people who needed an NHS admission for other life threatening issues.

I think I read that 26,000 of the "Covid" deaths are people who contracted Covid whilst in hospital for an unrelated issue.

Other people will have died because they couldn't be admitted for treatment in time due to Covid patients classed as being in emergency need of the beds/attention from NHS staff.

I suppose though that some people just can't see/don't care about the bigger picture, just what affects their own lives.

I don’t quite get the point being made here - is it that we shouldn’t be treating COVID patients so we keep resources back for the other illnesses? Or is it that we must get on top of COVID as it’s not just COVID deaths/ long term effects but far wider effects?

I guess Nike has never received any medical treatment or intervention as they believe it is reasonable to get ill and not receive any treatment.

Yesterday 23:16 bobbojobbo

I can't be fucked talking you round. You seem to be yet another person who thinks that the lives of the old and or vulnerable are somehow worth less than other peoples. And who still doesn't get that its not at all just about deaths.
I don't care what you think about lockdowns, you don't get a choice in the matter. People far smarter than you are saying this is what we need to do, so put your mask on, keep your opinions to yourself, and get on with it.“

Spot on.

@Icenii

I guess Nike has never received any medical treatment or intervention as they believe it is reasonable to get ill and not receive any treatment.

If I were already past my natural lifespan, and treating me meant millions of other people losing their livelihoods, civil liberties being removed and the cost running into billions, then no, I would decline treatment.

@DenisetheMenace

Yesterday 23:16 bobbojobbo

I can't be fucked talking you round. You seem to be yet another person who thinks that the lives of the old and or vulnerable are somehow worth less than other peoples. And who still doesn't get that its not at all just about deaths.
I don't care what you think about lockdowns, you don't get a choice in the matter. People far smarter than you are saying this is what we need to do, so put your mask on, keep your opinions to yourself, and get on with it.“

Spot on.

So what happens when the next pandemic hits us?

So what happens when the next pandemic hits us?

Hopefully we’ll be better prepared than this time.

Because long COVID is bloody awful and very debilitating...

@Brandnewcovidday

Because long COVID is bloody awful and very debilitating...

It is, but that’s not the reason for the lockdowns. It’s the deaths and the pressure on the nhs.

Which I agree is very unfortunate, but again falls well within the bounds of what we can reasonably expect from our lives.

Really?!?!

@PurpleDaisies

So what happens when the next pandemic hits us?

Hopefully we’ll be better prepared than this time.

This is just such a naive opinion. Do you really think that all threats can be overcome just by being better prepared?

The penny will have to drop for people like you sooner or later, I just hope it does so before we have destroyed the whole of society.

@stayathomer

Which I agree is very unfortunate, but again falls well within the bounds of what we can reasonably expect from our lives.

Really?!?!

Yes. People get sick, and sometimes it’s horrible and life ruining.

It’s a normal part of the human experience though, I’m honestly really surprised by the number of adults who genuinely seem to believe they, and their relatives, will live completely healthy lives forevermore.

It’s as if people have literally only just found out that sickness and death are actual things.

but I don’t think mere illness in a small minority of people is a valid enough reason to remove the civil liberties

Hiw callous!
What about 100,000 people dying before their time?

@Cocopogo

Yes I wonder how many younger people are dying from cancer and other conditions because they aren’t getting the treatment they need
This makes it sounds if there are no cancer treatments in any hospitals which is not the case. Although I don't know anyone under 40 with cancer, my friend was receiving chemo throughout the pandemic until her recent death and my cousin has had 3 cancer surgeries and monthly in-person check-ups and scans.