Government or individuals? Who is to blame?

[Plussizejumpsuit]

Seems from real life conversions, stuff I'm seeing on social media and reading /hearing in the media, there's a devide between where blame lies for covid. I don't mean where it originated.

But why it is how it is in the UK now. Many people seem to have run with the narrative it is about individual action. People being selfish, taking risks and causing spread.

The other way of thinking about it is the government initially locked down way too late, track and trace was shit, people couldn't get tests, loads of restrictions were too late etc etc. I'm sure most people are familiar with the criticism.

Personally I think covid is yet another example of blame shifting onto individuals. Other examples where this is a conscious comms and policy route by government is over immigration, austerity and the welfare system to name a few.

Seeing how quickly people have taken this on regarding covid and run with it in a way is shocking but given how society is about the issues I mention, not surprising.

I'm not perfect of course I get annoyed when people can't wear their masks over their nose! But do I think the fault lies in individual action? No.

So am I alone in how I feel over this? Do people really blame individuals or are they just getting frustrated as everything is shit right now?

If the rules have always been so clear why do government ministers keep getting them wrong when they try to clarify them?

[quote Plussizejumpsuit]**@Oblomov20

Interesting you think the rules were clear, when they changed 64 times since March.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/england-covid-lockdown-rules-have-changed-64-times-says-barrister[/quote]
@Oblomov20 has a good point. I haven't found the rules hard to follow either. They may have changed a lot but that, in my opinion, is largely down to pandering to the hard of thinking by trying to explain everything to the nth degree.

Common sense should go a long way but sadly there is no sense common to all

@Robbybobtail

I just don't agree you count control a virus. Look at SARS as a recent example, lots of action was taken to prevent it becoming worse. Also to further counter your argument, look at other countries which have dealt with the spread more successfully. Not just talking about New Zealand! But Japan or South Korea or Greece.

I don’t think anyone is to blame. There don’t appear to be many countries across the world appear to be dealing with this significantly better than us - apart from ones that IMO are just not comparable for a variety of different reasons e.g. NZ, China.
I don’t blame the government, but I do think government leadership has been poor though.

What about employers and industry? They are neither individuals nor government but many of them are refusing to let employees work from home this time , even if it worked ok in the first lockdown. Many are completely ignoring the anti Covid measures they shouldbe putting in place , are pressurising employees to come to work when they should be self isolating and refusing to be in any way flexible about home schooling pressures etc. I'd say quite a few employers ( not all of course) are significantly contributing to the spread with their working practices.

The virus is to blame however both the government and the people are responsible for the state its now in, and both like to blame each other for it without any acknowledgement of guilt in their part

Both government decisions and individual actions play a role.

However the government is more culpable, having completely ignored their primary duty to lead the country and protect the population.

Government choices could have made so much difference. I see no evidence the PM even wants to get a grip.

So my view is it is 95% government, 5% public. Leadership starts at the top (or rather, doesn't in our case )

Those with any modicum of intelligence will know that it can never be solely government or solely individuals but a combination of multiple factors.

My feeling is we could get a better government but we are kind of stuck with the public so more productive to focus on the government bits.

Also that is actually their paid job (although of course the PM did moan he wasn't paid enough, maybe he is working to rule whilst negotiating a raise!)

Why do you feel the need to blame someone?

Few of us have experienced a pandemic like this before. That includes the nhs and the govt.
Certainly there were holes in our preparedness, for example the lack of a high volume national testing facility. At the beginning, tests were being processed in Europe and the US. The lack of factories to produce Ppe in the U.K.etc Bad planning, short sighted and foolish.
Few individuals understood the risk of the pandemic during the first wave, not unreasonable since it was a new illness and the world was still learning. But equally some individuals must accept responsibility for their actions.
Those who continue to hold house parties, raves and lock-ins. Those who ignore guidance and whine about their civil liberties. Those who post rubbish on social media and mislead the gullible.

If the U.K. had acted like China and locked down hard , penalising individuals, it would have been wrong. If we had chosen to force children to remain inside for months on end like some in Europe, it would have been wrong.
I take personal responsibility for me and mine. I stay home, exercise when it's quiet, encourage my ds to get away from the screen and try to add variety to his day. The pandemic has cost me a lot but I don't see the point in blaming people. It doesn't help.

Why do you feel the need to blame someone?
Human society falls apart when both individuals and institutions don't take appropriate responsibility for their actions.

The government made choices. They often chose to ignore advice given by their advisors that would save lives. In the case of locking down a week later than advised in the first wave, it is estimated 20,000 extra deaths were caused by that choice.

If a government doesn't have to own those choices, then you basically live in a failed state.

Look at the Dutch government - that is a proper taking of responsibility.

Leaders need to lead by example and since the DC debacle that's not what we've had. When the leaders make it clear they don't think the rules are important, yoy can't expect the public to comply. Regardless of what people are told, why would they believe it and it will change behaviour, whether that's consciously or unconsciously.

I don't think it's about "blame", we are where we are and people (in the main) have made decisions based on evidence they had/have at the time. It could all have been much much worse.

What's the Dutch govt done that's so fantastic? They've only just begun vaccinating haven't they?

How is it trite to blame the virus? it's like trying to stop water flowing through a Yorkshire dry stone wall, you can blame who you like if it helps but it's a huge mixture of reasons 🤷

@Aloamilk

What's the Dutch govt done that's so fantastic? They've only just begun vaccinating haven't they?

How is it trite to blame the virus? it's like trying to stop water flowing through a Yorkshire dry stone wall, you can blame who you like if it helps but it's a huge mixture of reasons 🤷

I was talking about the fact they have resigned over fucking up, rather than their covid performance.

The fuck up isn't covid-related, but the point is they have said 'we have fallen short'.

I feel British people are losing the feeling that they deserve decent government. The British used to be an example of a good democracy - now we just have jokers.

The government. As with everything it suits them to have us plebs all blaming each other because then we won't be pointing the finger at them.

Shiela forgetting her mask when she went to Asda and Sue having her mam over for tea didn't cause this. Gross underfunding of the NHS for the past decade, failure to follow scientific advice in favour of populism, failure to take the threat seriously early enough, outsourcing various jobs to unqualified mates at a cost of billions, failure to set up a decent track and trace early enough, failure to ensure everyone required to self isolate isn't penalised financially and failure to monitor the borders is what has really exasperated the pandemic in the U.K.

I also think there was a huge problem with British exceptionalism at the start - oh it's bad in China because they eat bats and we don't, oh it's bad in Italy because they have an older population but we're fine, oh it's bad in Spain because they're far more tactile that is brits so we'll be fine ...

I think the only contributing factor that isn't the government's fault is the UK's population density.

One thing I have noticed as a newcomer to Britain is how many people cite their anxiety or that of their children as an excuse to not wear masks. It is as if nobody is ever anxious in other countries.

@OutComeTheWolves

The government. As with everything it suits them to have us plebs all blaming each other because then we won't be pointing the finger at them.

Shiela forgetting her mask when she went to Asda and Sue having her mam over for tea didn't cause this. Gross underfunding of the NHS for the past decade, failure to follow scientific advice in favour of populism, failure to take the threat seriously early enough, outsourcing various jobs to unqualified mates at a cost of billions, failure to set up a decent track and trace early enough, failure to ensure everyone required to self isolate isn't penalised financially and failure to monitor the borders is what has really exasperated the pandemic in the U.K.

I also think there was a huge problem with British exceptionalism at the start - oh it's bad in China because they eat bats and we don't, oh it's bad in Italy because they have an older population but we're fine, oh it's bad in Spain because they're far more tactile that is brits so we'll be fine ...

I think the only contributing factor that isn't the government's fault is the UK's population density.

Disagree with nothing in here.

The things Jenny Harries said about testing, beg events, masks, other countries are just cringe-inducing.

A lot of mask-resistance just felt like 'we refuse to copy the Chinese' given how simple a change it was for most.

The Chinese Government are to blame for letting the virus get so far out of control before letting people know.

@inquietant the Dutch government have just resigned over a welfare scandal. Nothing to do with Covid. And they will be back in power after the upcoming elections.

@Mintjulia

Why do you feel the need to blame someone?

Because 80 thousand plus people have died.
Many more will have life changing long covid
Millions of people have lost income
Millions of people also have terrible mental health

Also it is a debate question. That's what writes like this are for. But yes very clever. Why am I so bitter I need to blame somone?

OP, they may have changed many times, the rules.
But, at every single stage, they were clear to me. And everyone I know, my mum, my friends. None of us were confused.

Right at the start, individuals wouldn't comply. We were told to social distance, to wash hands, to avoid large gatherings, etc., but too many didn't, hence the first lockdown at very short notice. You can't blame the government for that

Oh yes you can!!!
The Govt encouraged mass gatherings... horse racing 250k, football matches inc those from countries with terrible infection rates.

In our village, our village pub was heaving on that Friday evening after Boris has said pubs must close - so full there were crowds of drinkers on the road (this is normally a quiet sleepy pub but almost everyone came out "for one last drink")

You must live in the same village as me!
But again, Bojo gave us plenty of notice and just a few days earlier told us shaking hands was an ok thing to do, apparently, at the end of the evening in our local, people hugged and shook hands.....

However, i don't blame Govt for all the earlier feb march decisions, it was an unprecedented situation.
But the mistakes and lack of leadership in the summer through to the xmas debacle is 100% Johnsons fault.

He is a weak and ineffective leader but as James Comey (former FBI chief) says "the last people to acknowledge a fraud, are the victims themselves"

What about other countries? Have they struggled with rules? Other countries have had much stricter rules. Spain and Portugal practically stayed in their flats for the first 2 weeks of lockdown, back in March 20, didn't they? It can't be just that their residents are more 'compliant' can it?

My colleague says her sister in France is only allowed out twice a week, at a set designated time, to food shop. She has to carry her paperwork and it is occasionally checked by police. If her husband needs to go to the hospital they take their paperwork.

No going out to exercise. They stay in. Unless for the 2 food shops. No ambiguity as to whether Boris can cycle 7 miles 'locally'. It's totally clear.

Jajas is it Boris's fault that once he made the rules, everyone went to the pub for 'one last pint' on that Friday night? No. It's the publics fault.

What about those mass crowds at the beach we saw in the middle of summer. Was that the governments fault. No. It was the individuals. They each made the decision to go. Did you? No. Me neither.