Lockdown will claim 560,000 lives. Are lockdown fanatics are killing people.

[Billie18]

Worrying reports coming out indicating that Lockdowns will end up claiming the equivalent of more than 500,000 lives because of the health impact of the 'deep and prolonged recession that they will cause. It has been obvious that restrictive lock down measures will impact on the health of the whole population but concern has been shouted down by those in favor of lockdowns. But will those ignoring the dangers of lockdowns on the entire population be responsible for killing huge numbers of people. Killing far more people than any virus.

You’d gave thought done kind of logic would have applied to subsequent spikes applied lockdown to that the demographic, but no -it’s a ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater’ ‘strategy’

@Billie18

Data from NHS England indicates that presently 111,901 beds are occupied in England of these beds 28,246 beds are occupied by patients with confirmed cases of coronavirus (information is not given for the reason they were admitted or what other illnesses or injuries they may be suffering or even if they became infected in hospital or were admitted because of coronavirus symptoms). In ICU 4,751 beds are occupied and 2,654 are occupied by patients with confirmed cases of coronavirus (again no further information is given).

Maybe there would be more without a lockdown but this is speculation. What we do know is that people will die in huge numbers due to the lockdown because the NHS is struggling to treat 2,654 patients in ICU and 28,246 patients with positive coronavirus tests in the whole of England. Flu (fortunately and miraculously) has been completely eradicated this year but in previous years some of the beds occupied by coronavirus patients would have been occupied by flu patients and winter is known to be a a busy time.

It is shocking that there are estimates that 560,000 people may be killed by the lockdown because the NHS can't increase it's bed capacity beyond these numbers during a national crisis when it's been known for nearly a year that it would be needed.

You again.

Links and research, not stuff you've extracted from your fundamental orifice.

Deaths from Covid fall Mainly in the older population, deaths from lockdown fall more evenly throughout the population. The death of an 81 year old is 1 life year lost. The death of a 40year old from suicide represents a loss of 42 life years and is therefore far more of a loss to society

Your argument is flawed though. Not least the data as once you get to 81 or whatever your life expectancy doesn't drop so quick so lost years are higher than 1 .
Plus the locking down the elderly and vulnerable who are often children and working age as has been said so many times but it seems it just won't sink in to some people would not be enough to protect the NHS due to numbers.
Plus a lot of ECV have been pretty much shielding since March anyway. DH has. Unfortunately I can't as I work out if the home and it was made crystal clear that we would be fined if we don't send our kids to school when they were open .DH himself has regular blood tests and this week alone has been at the hospital twice for tests. Due to his drug regime he is ECV but his life expectancy is far more than one year. Given hospital are often linked to outbreaks the ones most vulnerable who use them more. We cannot do any more to protect him and the NHS.

Is there a country that hadn't locked down and are they fairing well?

Do our medics on the front line not want us to lock down then?

Some of you really need to go an speak to the goverment and tell them you have a better plan that they, those on the front line, and many other countries have not considered.

doi.org/10.1136/bmj.m2376
A BMJ report on Sweden which supports @Icenii.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

It is not controversial to state that if you have a solution to a problem and that solution kills people then your solution isn't good enough.

The attitude that lockdown deaths are necessary to prevent covid deaths is utterly fucking bizarre. Someone who dies from lockdown is just as dead as someone who dies from covid. They are equally unwanted deaths. And yet the attitude seems to be that dying from covid is a massive tragedy and dying from lockdown is just acceptable collateral damage. WTF is wrong with people???

We aren’t locked down to stop people dying 🤦‍♀️ We’re locked down so that everyone that needs hospital treatment can get it.

@LegoPirateMonkey

Lockdown comes at a terrible cost. For me, it’s costing me my ability to work and taking a toll on my mental health while it robs my children of so much normal life. But an alternative reality where hospitals became overwhelmed and the health service stopped functioning would cost us so much more and so many more people would die of treatable causes, of so many more causes than covid. I don’t know how you keep the NHS running without lockdown. If there was another way that cost the economy less, governments would do it.

This!

We aren’t locked down to stop people dying. We’re locked down so that everyone that needs hospital treatment can get it

So again, what happens when the immediate crisis is over and that 4.5 million on the NHS waiting list has increased yet more? Despite appearances Covid isn't the only thing which involves hospital care, and when something like normality returns the usual accidents, etc, will likely go up

I wonder if anyone will seriously suggest even more lockdowns until that backlog is also cleared?

[quote NikeDeLaSwoosh]@Thefeep

Do you really think it a good use of resources to invasively treat people who are already past their natural lifespan though?

If everybody over the age of 82 declined an icu bed, and opted for palliative care only, the NHS would have coped and there would have been no need for lockdown at all.

It’s going to be a difficult paradigm shift, but as a society, and indeed as a species, we need to have a grown up conversation around death.

It isn’t fair for people who have already reached what should be the end of their life to be kept alive Even longer at the expense of our children’s futures. Children who haven’t even started their lives yet.

Somethings got to give at some point.[/quote]
I don’t think it’s people over 82 in ICU. 3/4 are under 70 at the moment. Hospitalisations are driving the lockdown and that’s the younger population not the very elderly.

The death of an 81 year old is 1 life year lost.

That's incorrect, the life expectancy of an 81 year old is not 1 year, it's 8 years for men and 9 years for women.

If everybody over the age of 82 declined an icu bed, and opted for palliative care only, the NHS would have coped and there would have been no need for lockdown at all.*

It isn't 82 year olds in ICU beds. It's people in their 50s and 60s. ICU treatment is too brutal for people so frail/end of life, so they are given palliative care.

The death of a 40year old from suicide represents a loss of 42 life years and is therefore far more of a loss to society.

By this logic you should agree with lockdowns, as Covid is killing more 40 year olds than suicide.

Both are tragic. All deaths are tragic from any condition. No one is saying only covid counts. No one.

I’m vaguely a member of ‘effective altruism’ communities- effective altruism is a philosophy that seeks basically to donate to charity with the aim of saving the most quality-adjusted or disability-adjusted life years (QALYs or DALYs) per dollar/pound/whatever. I haven’t heard anyone in those communities speaking against lockdowns.

Actually they would probably be in favour of lockdown for the side effect noticed during the early stages of the pandemic of the huge reduction in pollution which will have prevented some pollution-related deaths.

[quote NikeDeLaSwoosh]@Thefeep

Do you really think it a good use of resources to invasively treat people who are already past their natural lifespan though?

If everybody over the age of 82 declined an icu bed, and opted for palliative care only, the NHS would have coped and there would have been no need for lockdown at all.

It’s going to be a difficult paradigm shift, but as a society, and indeed as a species, we need to have a grown up conversation around death.

It isn’t fair for people who have already reached what should be the end of their life to be kept alive Even longer at the expense of our children’s futures. Children who haven’t even started their lives yet.

Somethings got to give at some point.[/quote]
80 year olds aren’t in ICU
Most people in ICU are 45-64 year olds, with only 25% over 70.

@Rosehip10

Let me guess OP you think "we should shield the vulnerable and the rest of us crack on"

I actually think that. To some extent. Not necessarily in such a black and white way, though.

Some of the views on here are verging on extreme. Ultimately suggesting that only those deserving of proper treatment should receive it e.g young enough, is vile.

Do you also think the system the NHS use to determine whether a person is likely to benefit from sustained and invasive and very expensive treatment is vile?

Ultimately suggesting that only those deserving of proper treatment should receive it e.g young enough, is vile

I didn't read it like that myself; I saw it more as an attempt, in a situation where there aren't any ideal answers, to question what might be least awful

A conversation which will be sorely needed if the vaccines are less effective than we all hope ...

Yep. The legacy of lockdown will be absolutely DEVASTATING, and I hope will be judged very harshly.

Saint Boris is desperately trying not to think about this, and there's no doubt he's planning to resign just before the fallout from his hallowed lockdown rears its ugly head. Meanwhile he is trying to distract us from it as much as he can. "Looooooooooook!!! I've found a vacCEEN!!!!"

Some absolutely deluded bollocks on here

It always seems to swing between saying all the governments in the world are stupid and I could do better (yeah right) or all the governments in the world are making this up (yeah right)

Same shit, different thread

It’s simple

Yes lockdowns cause problems, and deaths

Not having lockdowns when there’s a pandemic also cause problems, and deaths

Much cleverer people than me all over the world have worked out that the 2nd option is the least worst. Neither are an active choice, it’s found the least worst thing here

Why the duck do people still think they know better?

A conversation which will be sorely needed if the vaccines are less effective than we all hope

This is what I think. I hope it never comes to that, but there are a lot of people supporting lockdowns saying “well what’s your alternative” who don’t seem to be able to tell us what their alternative is if the vaccines don’t get us out of this (unless they think ongoing lockdowns are possible or sustainable in which case words fail me).

Leaving it to kill hundreds of thousands wouldn't have done the economy any good either.

Leaving it to kill hundreds of thousands wouldn't have done the economy any good either.

Can you imagine the fear that would generate. Even before lockdown last March schools were closing, people were withdrawing children, people were isolating themselves to protect themselves, people were panic buying and stockpiling. With or without a lockdown our economy would have been affected, who knows by how much if we didn't lock down. We need to keep hospital numbers low enough to manage and we don't do that by locking up the "vulnerable" and letting everyone else carry on, for starters there are vulnerable and the extremely vulnerable. People are only considering the extremely vulnerable when they say lock them down but probably a quarter of the population comes under vulnerable and they include key workers, parents, carers how the hell do you cope with locking down so many people. ( 54 year old friend of mine, non smoking, not overweight, no underlying health conditions spent a week in hospital, he is classed as vulnerable solely on his age)

@BillMasen

Some absolutely deluded bollocks on here

It always seems to swing between saying all the governments in the world are stupid and I could do better (yeah right) or all the governments in the world are making this up (yeah right)

Same shit, different thread

Yep