Online learning - cameras

[radiatorgonemad]

Just want peoples opinions on cameras when during online learning.

I'm in England btw.

Listened to a few of DS's online A level classes (full of 17 and 18 year olds) and there's one teacher who spends the first 15-20 mins of the lesson speaking to individual students in front of the class who won't put their cameras on, saying that if they didn't then they would be marked as absent. This keeps going until everyone puts on their cameras or she gets so frustrated and gives up, marking those absent who didn't put theirs on.

This didn't just happen once but I've listened to a few of the same teacher's lessons this week and they all begin the same way. I only know about this because DS puts his camera on with no problem and then has to listen to his lesson being wasted when she's threatening his classmates with absent marks and he complained to me about it being a waste of time. They are then set the class work that they missed to do in their own time because the class time was wasted.

Is this right? Their classes are 90 minutes long and 20 ish of it is wasted targeting students who may not feel comfortable putting their cameras on. I feel sorry for the kids who don't have their own space to do these lessons so are doing them in the kitchen/living room/shared bedroom, possibly with siblings or parents in the same room at the same time. Or they may not be able to afford devices with suitable cameras and I don't feel like it's appropriate to target them in front of the whole class when there's multiple reasons why they can't have a camera on or don't want to.

What's everyone's opinion? Older DD says she would anonymously contact the school to make them aware of the time wasting, and try to make them understand that kids might not be able to/don't want to put cameras on

DS's other two teachers don't do this so it's not a school policy.

Just wanted to know opinions and what it's like online learning in other places

It could be school policy but only that teacher enforces it. I know with younger children they either all need their cameras on or all off. Some logged in without cameras on can see everyone else so from a safeguarding point of view the teacher would need to see who is on the call. Anyone could be sitting behind a screen with the camera off.

Alternatively the teacher might be concerned that the student has logged into the lesson and then walked away. Which happens with monotonous regularity.

Alternatively the teacher might be concerned that the student has logged into the lesson and then walked away

This. Older students need to be in class and working. Too many of them log in and play xbox for the rest of the day. The only surefire way of combatting this is to be able to see them and expect them to answer questions and participate in what is going on. Like in a classroom. They can use backgrounds if they are worried about what people think of their surroundings and/or have a word with the teacher if there is something they don't want others to be able to see. But if the teacher is banging on about it lesson after lesson, it's probably the case that it's policy and that she's needs to be seen to nag and cajole until she gets results.

Honestly, people moan at us when we're not doing online learning and people moan at us when we do.

For sixth formers, I also try to make the point that it's good preparation for online interviews, online open days, and just the professional world in general. I was on a seminar recently where one university spoke about students turning their mics and cameras off during group discussions, and reading between the lines I think they found it a little impolite. I agree because it is quite disconcerting to be teaching into a load of blank screens or avatars, especially when my face is visible.

I understand no screens for younger students, but for 17/18 year olds, supported by a robust safeguarding policy and code of conduct, it should be fine.

I agree with what other teachers have said.

None of my Y12 switched on their cameras on Monday so I spent a short time -nagging- encouraging them. They were all on today and it made a huge difference - the atmosphere is much closer to a normal lesson when we can all see each other.

I've heard from teacher friends that some kids are logging in, not putting their cameras on and then just wandering off and essentially skiving the lesson. Maybe this is why she is so insistent?

It might be the senior staff that are trying to enforce this rule and therefore not the teacher's fault.

I’m a teacher. Cameras on makes a HUGE difference to the lesson, it’s much more effective and the children get much more out of lessons as they feel fully present. They can blur their backgrounds and press mute if needed. Imagine being on a zoom call where everyone else has turned their cameras off!

When you're using limited data having the camera ON means that the data upload is almost as high as the data download.

That means for example, that an hour lesson could use 'just' 1GB of data with your camera off, but 2gb with camera on.
Also, for slow broadband speeds, having the camera on uses bandwidth, which can make live lessons impossible.

For those of you with unlimited fast internet, you probably don't think about this.
For kids using limited (phone or dongle) data, every time they turn their camera on it's likely to cost them more money.
So it's a problem for poorer kids, and rural kids with limited data packages.

I think teachers don't think about this or realise. And how many teenagers will say in front of their classmates 'sorry I can't afford the data to turn my camera on'

It makes me really cross.

@Sittinbythetree imagine having to turn your camera on and then paying more and more each day to do what the teacher says.

@HipTightOnions please read what I said and consider whether you really need to see them the whole time.

My son took his iPad to the toilet. Multitasking lessons with having a poo. I really hope he had his camera (and mic!) off.

Thank you @poshme, I confess I had not considered this.

It is school policy so perhaps we need to be more sensitive.

The camera is broken on the computer dd uses. I need the one with the working camera. So it’s not an option.

@HipTightOnions no problem.
Last lockdown our internet was so slow only 1 person could use live zoom type stuff at once- with camera off.

We now have super fast- but limited data (rural) so it's a subject close to my heart!

Last time I had to email all the kids teachers to explain that they couldn't all attend every live lesson if it clashed with work meetings or other live lessons for siblings.

Poshme - that’s a valid point. In my defence all our kids have WiFi, and still don’t have their cameras on!

We have wifi... that's data limited!

@poshme same here if I am in a meeting with camera on she can’t do the live bit of the lesson. Normally though I can turn mine off as most of our zoom meetings aren’t camera on as everyone hates it !

We have super fast fibre wifi but it still crashes

I’m a lecturer so slightly different setup. I prefer students to have cameras off in a lecture when there are 50ish people in the “room”. In a tutorial with eg 10 I ask them to have cameras on and people generally do with no issues. I mute everyone in lectures, and if people do want to speak they know to mute themselves again after. I often get them to share in the “chat” rather than speak too. At the beginning it was a nightmare with people eating crisps/yawning/dogs barking etc!

Agree with pp re backgrounds - there are loads to choose from or you can upload your own. Before Christmas I asked my my tutorial groups to set up festive backgrounds or winter scenes - some of them were really cute! Since the holiday I have asked people to find spring/summer photos to cheer us all up. Most have used Google images (I have a field of daffodils as mine) but some have used actual photos of eg beaches.

They'd struggle in this house as they're having to use a desk top without a camera. Money is tight at the moment so we can't really afford to buy one. The only other option is my laptop, but that is the only device authorised for the program we use at work, so I need it.

Our internet can’t cope with four dc on laptops with cameras on. We’re rural, nothing we can do about crap Internet.

Also some dc (looked after children, for example) may not be able to turn cameras on for safeguarding reasons.

I’d never buy a new computer for lessons for the camera !! Definitely not an option!

At my school the policy is all cameras and microphones off for all pupils. They see me but I don't see them.

Our secondary school is cameras on for registration then everybody except the teacher turning it off. The reasons that my kids were given is bandwidth and privacy (eg younger siblings walk in) I think that a register with camera on can act as a welfare check. I understand why a school might want cameras on. It would be tempting for some kids to leave the class running then play games on another device
There was a trend on TikTok where uni students in the US turned on their camera and recorded their lecturer's reaction to not teaching to blank screens. They always seem very happy to be talking to a human rather than rows of blank squares. I'm not suggesting that this should happen in secondary schools - just saying that if it were up to teachers they'd rather see a face.

I am sympathetic, OP.
I feel like I'm on course to big show down with DS's college.
Who keep messaging to complain about DS being off camera.
He hates being on camera and seen by invisible others.

I get teen DS up in morning to make sure he dials up to the lesson.
I check repeatedly he's on while trying to get some of my paid work done/field demands from other DC/cats.
I nag teen DS about homework & sit with him for hours, keep him company while he does homework. Late homework is other repeat complaint from the college.

Our ADSL mostly failed today so that was fun -- not. DS using his phone data to tune in, camera off.

For sixth formers, I also try to make the point that it's good preparation for online interviews, online open days, and just the professional world in general.

Honestly DS will just quit college & work in the chip shop. I'm getting the loud & clear message that's what the college truly wants him to do. My efforts are pointless.