Online learning - cameras

[radiatorgonemad]

Just want peoples opinions on cameras when during online learning.

I'm in England btw.

Listened to a few of DS's online A level classes (full of 17 and 18 year olds) and there's one teacher who spends the first 15-20 mins of the lesson speaking to individual students in front of the class who won't put their cameras on, saying that if they didn't then they would be marked as absent. This keeps going until everyone puts on their cameras or she gets so frustrated and gives up, marking those absent who didn't put theirs on.

This didn't just happen once but I've listened to a few of the same teacher's lessons this week and they all begin the same way. I only know about this because DS puts his camera on with no problem and then has to listen to his lesson being wasted when she's threatening his classmates with absent marks and he complained to me about it being a waste of time. They are then set the class work that they missed to do in their own time because the class time was wasted.

Is this right? Their classes are 90 minutes long and 20 ish of it is wasted targeting students who may not feel comfortable putting their cameras on. I feel sorry for the kids who don't have their own space to do these lessons so are doing them in the kitchen/living room/shared bedroom, possibly with siblings or parents in the same room at the same time. Or they may not be able to afford devices with suitable cameras and I don't feel like it's appropriate to target them in front of the whole class when there's multiple reasons why they can't have a camera on or don't want to.

What's everyone's opinion? Older DD says she would anonymously contact the school to make them aware of the time wasting, and try to make them understand that kids might not be able to/don't want to put cameras on

DS's other two teachers don't do this so it's not a school policy.

Just wanted to know opinions and what it's like online learning in other places

I'm a teacher and school policy is students have cameras and microphones off. I usually have my camera on as I think it's nicer for the students to see me, but today one class told me it was lagging and so I tried turning my camera off and it helped - so it's not just students who have issues with internet. I'm suspicious that some are logging in and disappearing so have started asking them to submit a picture of their notes from the lesson or they can type and submit as a document. Seems to be working okay so far...

Interesting points from both sides!

If you're a teacher please read some of these comments from parents and think about them next time when you're nagging your kids to turn their cameras on🤞🏼

I understand it's important for teachers to know that the students are engaging but if they know they're just gonna be nagged about a camera then SURELY that's gonna make them less likely to turn up to the lesson in the first place

I would be very upset about the wasted class time. If the student has a legitimate reason for not turning on their camera, they can log that info with the teacher. So slow bandwidth, room full of kids, whatever it is, it should be noted on the teachers roster so she isn’t sitting there trying to get that student to do more than acknowledge attendance verbally.

Our teachers have been very understanding about complications of any sort as long as the students communicate. So if they try to log in and can’t, or the internet is down, or chaos breaks out at home in that moment, they simply write an email explaining why they missed the class and it is marked as excused and they can make up the work when they have time. DD’s school is using it as a teaching moment in properly addressing, formatting, and signing emails while getting across your message clearly.

Students keep their cameras and microphones off at my kids school, including my Y13. They interact through the chat function. I can’t see the value of having cameras on really, other than checking on engagement which is presumably better checked by how they interact with the class and answer questions.

There's definitely valid points on both sides of this. We generally do mics and camers off below 6th form, students unmute to answer questions only, but I am fairly sure in my average y8 or 9 class a lot of them are technically on the call but on their phone or x box or whatever and just do the work later. There's thread after thread screaming for more engagement from schools and complaining about lack of live teaching but as we've seen from this thread there's just as many reasons not too. I'm sending my kids in as key worker kids so I can do decent live uninterrupted lessons all day but if people aren't fussed I'll keep them home. I don't think absoluteky insisting on cameras is a good use of time but I understand why the teacher feels frustrated.

I know money is tight for a lot of people, but you can buy a webcam for slight over £10 on amazon, and I'm sure if this was really unaffordable, schools would help out.

I agree that WiFi speeds are an issue, though, but I think it's not unreasonable that if this is the problem, students could let the teacher know. I think this goes if there is some other reason too.

Live teaching to a lot of blank screens is actually really hard work (we have all video off as a school policy on safeguarding), I really don't think it's reasonable to complain about this teacher. Would I do it personally? No. But I don't think it's unreasonable that she is.

But I'm going to wildly assume that if the teacher had been politely told via email that a student didn't have a webcam or didn't have enough data to turn their cameras on, then she wouldn't be doing this. So I don't think she's unreasonable to ask for it, and the students probably do get more out of the lessons if cameras are on.

I wouldn’t go with an on camera idea for dd. She works hard on her lessons but would hate to be on camera , it’s hard enough as it is. I wouldn’t qualify for financial support but wouldn’t even spend £10 on a camera as I don’t believe it would be of value .

The only positive for dd in all this is that she can sit there wrapped in her Oodie . Honestly I think on camera requirement would push her over the edge mentally .

My school have checked the IT status of all our pupils- we know which are accessing over phone contracts, or who doesn't have webcams etc. Those children are on a list circulated to teaching staff, and we don't call on those children to be on camera, and we have invited those in to attend school daily because it our eyes their limited access to educational provision makes them vulnerable.
There's only three 6th formers without broadband/camera access...but teachers still have to nag at the start of many lessons!

There's also a section on the "don't hassle" list for those that are really struggling with their MH/emotional health, so we are really trying to get this right.

My Y10 DD has to use a computer with no camera, because there's 4 of us WFH, online all day, and that's the only machine spare. School know, and if there are any sessions where she'll really need a camera, she knows ahead of time so she can organise to switch workspaces with DS.

Gosh, now I'm feeling glad that dcs school have a cameras off policy, or this morning the Y9 & Y7 classes would have had full view of my youngest dd running round naked to get away from me as I tried to get her dressed!

If you're a teacher please read some of these comments from parents and think about them next time when you're nagging your kids to turn their cameras on

I'm a teacher. I've read them. But if I work in a school where the policy is cameras on and I've been told to apply that, I have to apply it.

It's not 'time wasting' to enforce policies or manage the 'classroom' environment.

Behaviour management goes on in ordinary lessons and of course takes up the / is witnessed by everyone in the class.

You just don't see it normally, so if course it would be wrong for you to contact school and tell them that you don't like the teacher doing this part of her job.

Obviously, some of the issues about why having cameras on my be the wrong call would be best directed to someone in charge, as they'll have made the decision.

People really need to get that the whole system of educating young people in groups is necessarily imperfect and not every minute can possibly suit everyone involved. Teachers and school leaders do what's best for most, most of the time, and will support individuals with something additional to this, or different from this, when necessary and possible.

What if parents don’t consent to the child having their camera on?

For those teachers who say 'I know who can't have their camera on for xyz reason, but we ask for others to have their camera on... doesn't that highlight to the rest of the class the kids who might have 'issues'? Which may be internet speed, but could be interpreted as finance issues- which could then lead to bullying?

I am fully aware that this is a nightmare to negotiate for teachers.

DS never turns his camera on in lessons usually. Today his lesson went into breakout rooms- and he said that in a smaller group they turn all chose to turn camera on...

Anyway- good wishes to everyone negotiating the nightmare of online live teaching!

Ours aren't allowed cameras on unless to show work.
Ds often mutes it too.

A friends college has to have camera on. Show you're dressed and not in pj's.
Not allowed in bedroom
No parents or siblings around

That wouldn't be possible in most houses.

I’m a teacher, I already feel like giving up with this. Whatever we do loads of people complain. Last time there was demand for more live lessons, this time people don’t want their cameras on and say the live lessons are too much, but other people say it’s much better. Last time people wanted more video calls now people say the video calls are too much. Its IMPOSSIBLE to do this in a way that suits everyone. It’s incredibly hard teaching like this and not to feel like just writing ‘Reasearch xxx and make a fact file’ every lesson. How about the parents of kids who don’t want cameras on actually, you know, tell the school so we know who to encourage to have them on. Nb we are also paying for and sharing our broadband from home.

Surely cameras on is a big safeguarding issue? How could anyone know who else is watching the children, it's easy to see a laptop screen without appearing on its camera. Even more possible if some are on camera and some are not. Many will not have enough space at home to be anywhere other than their bedrooms.

I'm glad my DC's school's policy is teachers on camera but no students. They get them to engage via the chat box usually, or by using the mic, it works well.

Teacher here following with interest. We dont do live lessons but do have twice daily Teams sessions for catch up. (Primary school). I always ask children to put their cameras on as that’s what we’re told to do. However, now I’ve read some of the posts I may well ask our SLT to have a rethink.
As far as it being needed to ensure all students are engaged in the lesson, one way of ensuring this is for them to be given tasks mid session as well as at the end, and show evidence of completing those tasks. Ask individuals questions that they have to answer in chat. TBF, I noticed one child who had his iPad next to his PC and was watching something on it - I could see his reflection in the mirror behind him!!!

European - they can blur their background or put a fake one in.
Your child might get on well with chat - but others will be hating it - it’s hard for those who find reading harder! And lots of children don’t engage with chat or find it very distracting! There is nothing that suits everyone.

Sittinbythetree I deeply sympathise with teachers. I know nothing you do can suit everyone. None of it is your fault. You didn’t ask for this any more than we did.

I have told the school not to ask my dc to put cameras on as I won’t allow them to.
This is a compromise as I don’t really want live teaching at all. However, I know others campaigned for it last time.

NEU have advised that children should have their camera's off.
If something untoward is to happen, they say they may not be able to offer legal advice to the teacher.
My dd has ASD and has her camera off, she is still engaging with her lessons and doing her work.

It is incredibly frustrating to teach a class with a sea of blank screens, to ask questions and to realise pupils are logged in but not present and to then have pupils falling behind because of this. I expect that that the teacher is (rightly) at the end of their tether.
I can’t imagine spending twenty minutes just asking for cameras but I will repeatedly ask pupils to make sure they are turned on at various points in the lesson and report lack of camera use, whilst also giving pupils the option to email me privately if they are having difficulties with this.
I don’t think I’d be massively pleased to hear that parents were present throughout the lessons but obviously this can’t be helped in some cases if you have to share a room for work/ noise travelling.

I would tell the school that the camera is broken if they asked for camera on, but policy is off except for PE but dd just explained hers doesn’t work - and not all of the kids put cameras on anyway.

I have emailed her form tutor saying how
excellent the live lessons are , I am so grateful to the school.

I also appreciate talking to blankness is hard- esp for teachers who are used to so much interaction at work. Hopefully schools back permanently post Easter.

@Sittinbythetree

European - they can blur their background or put a fake one in. Your child might get on well with chat - but others will be hating it - it’s hard for those who find reading harder! And lots of children don’t engage with chat or find it very distracting! There is nothing that suits everyone.

Fair enough they can change their backgrounds. But there is still no way of knowing who else is watching the children.

The live lessons should be password protected and accessed from within whatever platform is being used. We use Meet, each class has its own room/code. Nobody enters before the teacher. Nobody can enter during the lesson unless they belong in that classroom and are using their specific gsuite credentials.
Nobody is going to see them apart from the teacher
Our school is cameras on policy (secondary)