Online learning - cameras

[radiatorgonemad]

Just want peoples opinions on cameras when during online learning.

I'm in England btw.

Listened to a few of DS's online A level classes (full of 17 and 18 year olds) and there's one teacher who spends the first 15-20 mins of the lesson speaking to individual students in front of the class who won't put their cameras on, saying that if they didn't then they would be marked as absent. This keeps going until everyone puts on their cameras or she gets so frustrated and gives up, marking those absent who didn't put theirs on.

This didn't just happen once but I've listened to a few of the same teacher's lessons this week and they all begin the same way. I only know about this because DS puts his camera on with no problem and then has to listen to his lesson being wasted when she's threatening his classmates with absent marks and he complained to me about it being a waste of time. They are then set the class work that they missed to do in their own time because the class time was wasted.

Is this right? Their classes are 90 minutes long and 20 ish of it is wasted targeting students who may not feel comfortable putting their cameras on. I feel sorry for the kids who don't have their own space to do these lessons so are doing them in the kitchen/living room/shared bedroom, possibly with siblings or parents in the same room at the same time. Or they may not be able to afford devices with suitable cameras and I don't feel like it's appropriate to target them in front of the whole class when there's multiple reasons why they can't have a camera on or don't want to.

What's everyone's opinion? Older DD says she would anonymously contact the school to make them aware of the time wasting, and try to make them understand that kids might not be able to/don't want to put cameras on

DS's other two teachers don't do this so it's not a school policy.

Just wanted to know opinions and what it's like online learning in other places

Anyone who also happens to be in the room with them can see though.
One of my y11 always has someone on hand because he has SEN.
I had an email from a mum last week telling me how much she enjoyed my year 10 lesson 🤷‍♀️

We've had to send out a letter to parents saying if it's noticed that a parent is present during the lesson then the child will be asked to leave because it's not on that other adults can see the other children.

@StepOutOfLine

The live lessons should be password protected and accessed from within whatever platform is being used. We use Meet, each class has its own room/code. Nobody enters before the teacher. Nobody can enter during the lesson unless they belong in that classroom and are using their specific gsuite credentials. Nobody is going to see them apart from the teacher Our school is cameras on policy (secondary)

Do the children not see each other, only the teacher can see them? My point was that someone in the room with a child would be able to see the other children but that's obviously not an issue if only the teacher can see the children on screen.

DS is told to have his camera off and mic off for most of the lesson. Last week he was sitting in the kitchen eating a big bowl of cereal and I asked him if he should be in a lesson. He told me he was in a lesson and the teacher was only going in about stuff they did last year. He then had a shower before rejoining the lesson to say good bye and thank you.

DD has been told to have her camera off for registration but on for most lessons.

@StepOutOfLine

We've had to send out a letter to parents saying if it's noticed that a parent is present during the lesson then the child will be asked to leave because it's not on that other adults can see the other children.

Yes that's good but what if it isn't noticed? It's very easy to see a laptop screen without appearing on its camera. If the children can see each other you have no idea who else is watching.

In fairness, if Mrs Bloggs, who in non pandemic times, has her son invite Master Smith for a sleepover at her house catches sight of Master Smith's head and shoulders in his own kitchen (when she's probably had him in her own kitchen in his pyjamas) while he's doing his maths lesson, I doubt the world will end.

We definitely have other adults watching - some parents are supporting their SEN children. Why does it matter that other adults can see the children? I always assume that anyone could be watching. They are just sitting there occasionally each speaking once or twice. Questions are targeted so they are unlikely to give a ‘wrong’ answer.

I’m a teacher. My school policy is cameras on to check the students are actually there and teachers should have their cameras on so the students get to see their faces. Or something like that.
I ignore school policy and have my camera off and ask all my students to turn their cameras off. I wish I could turn off all cameras like I can turn off all mics.
I don’t want to see my students half undressed in their bedrooms. I don’t want pervy comments from creepy dads in the background. I think all this cameras into peoples homes is opening a safeguarding can of worms.

@Sittinbythetree

We definitely have other adults watching - some parents are supporting their SEN children. Why does it matter that other adults can see the children? I always assume that anyone could be watching. They are just sitting there occasionally each speaking once or twice. Questions are targeted so they are unlikely to give a ‘wrong’ answer.

I thought teachers were very hot on safeguarding. Do you really see no issue with the potential for adults watching children without them or you knowing? If you were in school, you wouldn't mind some bloke you had never seen before watching your students through the window of your classroom?

@StepOutOfLine

In fairness, if Mrs Bloggs, who in non pandemic times, has her son invite Master Smith for a sleepover at her house catches sight of Master Smith's head and shoulders in his own kitchen (when she's probably had him in her own kitchen in his pyjamas) while he's doing his maths lesson, I doubt the world will end.

I would suggest that there might be a difference between this situation, where Master Bloggs has accepted an invitation to someone's home, and children being watched by who knows what adult without them or you being aware of it.

Sorry, Master Smith not Bloggs!

Following a spate of death threats, threats of rape and considerable violence (not to mention comments like "show my those juicy titties" aimed at the teacher) we now have a camera on policy when they enter, and then we turn it off once the students have entered the lesson. It allows us to prove who is using the account; students have been sharing login details with others and then denying all knowledge.

As much as I am happy to do live lessons with my 6th form classes, KS4 has been an absolute fucking nightmare this past week. We have police involved, parents threat ending teachers because they "can't take a joke" and parents wanting live lessons in the evening when they can supervise.

Nothing we do is making parents happy right now.

@StepOutOfLine

We've had to send out a letter to parents saying if it's noticed that a parent is present during the lesson then the child will be asked to leave because it's not on that other adults can see the other children.

This is the case for DD (year 1). Other parents sitting next to children on camera etc. I won't allow mine to put their cameras on as I'm just not comfortable with adults I've never met being able to view my children online. We don't allow social media use either. Luckily the school haven't made an issue of it. The DC's still answer questions on mic etc.

First lockdown last March - July. Due to safeguarding, webcams were off. This time round, school has learnt better and ditched this! They have asked parents to ensure that webcams are on for more effective online learning. Many kids were logging on and then doing whatever else apart from what they were supposed to. My Y9 was one of many so she is doing her lessons from the dining room table as opposed to her room without access to her phone until lessons are over this time. Methinks schools who didn’t offer online provision last year is working this one out fairly quickly.

I'm a uni lecturer. I taught 300 students online yesterday in various classes and only 5 had their cameras on. It makes it VERY hard to guage if theyre following, if they look confused, engaged, bewildered etc. At our uni we are not allowed to ask them to turn them on so we have to go with it but I do think it severely impacts their learning as they just are not engaging and are very passive. For example, I will ask a question and get the one who has their camera on respond but silence from all others. They will put comments in the chat box but won't unmic to say anything out loud. I feel sorry for those who do engage because it's ruining their chance to get involved. I've heard anecdotally from colleagues at other unis who force cameras on unless they have written evidence to say they can't use them, and they say engagement is far better.

I think it's slightly different for uni students but still very surprised that schools are putting under 18s in the position where they can be watched online by unknown adults.

@StepOutOfLine

In fairness, if Mrs Bloggs, who in non pandemic times, has her son invite Master Smith for a sleepover at her house catches sight of Master Smith's head and shoulders in his own kitchen (when she's probably had him in her own kitchen in his pyjamas) while he's doing his maths lesson, I doubt the world will end.

The trouble is it's not just Mrs Bloggs. It's every child's mum, dad, step mum, step dad, mum or dad's bf or gf, adult siblings, adult sibling's partners, lodgers, bubble members, so other family and friends. And Master Smith, his parents and you have no idea.

As you say in a previous post, you ask children to leave if you notice a parent, because it's not on that other adults can see the children.

@EuropeanRoller

I think it's slightly different for uni students but still very surprised that schools are putting under 18s in the position where they can be watched online by unknown adults.

Exactly, so many elements of safeguarding seem to be getting ignored due to the pandemic. In no other circumstance would it be deemed appropriate for a 5YO to be on a webcam with unknown adults. I also know of at least one child in care in DD's class who can be seen by all of the other parents at home, as the camera faces the children (and the teacher sits with his back to them iyswim).

Bebbity - that child should clearly not be on screen!
What do you all imagine these adults are going to do to your children if they see them on a screen?
WhyRewe - that sounds horrific. I suppose we are lucky that at my school they have just become depressingly passive.

Bebbity - they aren’t online in a 1 to 1 though - there are the other children and other adults watching, and it’s probably recorded. I’d imagine most people would be more likely to alert the school to a safeguarding issue than to cause one.

What do you all imagine these adults are going to do to your children if they see them on a screen?

Would you be happy (when everyone is back in school) to rig up a camera in your classroom and broadcast the audio and video of lessons to anyone who wanted to watch? Making sure that all the viewers knew which school you were in and all the children's names?

You really can't see any potential harm in allowing children to be viewed online by unknown adults? It seems like quite basic safeguarding to me.

I’d imagine most people would be more likely to alert the school to a safeguarding issue than to cause one.

I'm sure most people would. But unfortunately, not all.

@Lifeinaonesie

I'm a uni lecturer. I taught 300 students online yesterday in various classes and only 5 had their cameras on. It makes it VERY hard to guage if theyre following, if they look confused, engaged, bewildered etc. At our uni we are not allowed to ask them to turn them on so we have to go with it but I do think it severely impacts their learning as they just are not engaging and are very passive. For example, I will ask a question and get the one who has their camera on respond but silence from all others. They will put comments in the chat box but won't unmic to say anything out loud. I feel sorry for those who do engage because it's ruining their chance to get involved. I've heard anecdotally from colleagues at other unis who force cameras on unless they have written evidence to say they can't use them, and they say engagement is far better.

At my son's Uni, many of his lecturers don't want cameras switched on as they say it can overload the Uni WIFI system. Some others say they do want them on. As usual, lack of consistency doesn't help.

It's also sometimes regarded as best practice to disable webcams to stop hackers etc., and some anti virus software has web cam disabling as a default.

Anyway, would you really want images of 300 students on your screen? Wouldn't they be too small to be of use? I can see it useful for small group tutorials etc but for huge lectures, I can't see any benefit.

I’m amazed that the DFE or schools or whoever makes these decisions didn’t look at the successful online schools that have been running for years and see how they do it.

InterHigh, for example.

It’s camera and mic on for the teacher so every student can see the teacher and the slides or lesson materials.

It’s cameras and mic OFF for the students unless the teacher gives permission for them to speak in which case the teacher can enable the student’s mic.

There is a chat box, which students can ask questions in as they go, and can be used for collaboration when the teacher says so.

Lessons are live but also sit in a recording available to students to watch again at any time.

Done.

@EuropeanRoller

What do you all imagine these adults are going to do to your children if they see them on a screen?

Would you be happy (when everyone is back in school) to rig up a camera in your classroom and broadcast the audio and video of lessons to anyone who wanted to watch? Making sure that all the viewers knew which school you were in and all the children's names?

You really can't see any potential harm in allowing children to be viewed online by unknown adults? It seems like quite basic safeguarding to me.

It's not "anyone" though is it? Presumably there are access controls so that it's only certain teachers/pupils who can access the live sessions, so worst case scenario is a household member of a pupil being able to watch them.

Isn't that the same as parents etc going to watch school plays, presentations, assemblies, etc? They're not "open to the public", but are open to parents/guardians and other household members.