Tighter restrictions? What else can be "tighter"??

[R2221]

Schools closed, work places closed, nailbars, hairdressers, clothes shops, closed. My high street is dead and a couple of big shops are permanently closing down. We've been totally indoors, going out only to get grocery and exercise.

Oh, gyms are closed, no play dates, birthdays, dinners or even coffee with friends. WHAT ELSE CAN BE DONE TO STOP THE SPREAD??? What would "tighter" restrictions mean? To me, next tighter level means no grocery and exercise :(

My local hospital is totally full. I don't understand why.

SleepingStandingUp

why take away any sort of pleasure ffs
I can't go to the cinema. Theatre. Gigs. I couldn't go on holiday to Wales. I can't afford in Starbucks with a coffee. My kids can't go to soft play. We can't go to the pub or the library. I don't think "you can't close the off license cos they're give me pleasure" really works, do you?“

All of those examples involve staying indoors for longer than 15 minutes which research has shown greatly increases the risk of transmission.
I did not vote for this Government, think most Ministers are inept at best, incompetent at worst. I can see though that no Government is deliberately going to destroy its economy because it wants to be vindictive and spoil your fun. The regulations are based on evidence.
Off licences involve walking in and out in a couple of minutes. They also bring in much needed revenue at a time when the Exchequer’s receipts are way down.

@DenisetheMenace

SleepingStandingUp

why take away any sort of pleasure ffs
I can't go to the cinema. Theatre. Gigs. I couldn't go on holiday to Wales. I can't afford in Starbucks with a coffee. My kids can't go to soft play. We can't go to the pub or the library. I don't think "you can't close the off license cos they're give me pleasure" really works, do you?“

All of those examples involve staying indoors for longer than 15 minutes which research has shown greatly increases the risk of transmission.
I did not vote for this Government, think most Ministers are inept at best, incompetent at worst. I can see though that no Government is deliberately going to destroy its economy because it wants to be vindictive and spoil your fun. The regulations are based on evidence.
Off licences involve walking in and out in a couple of minutes. They also bring in much needed revenue at a time when the Exchequer’s receipts are way down.

Not disputing that, just the "why take away ANY sort of pleasure" comment

Restrict all contact with two legs, and read War and Peace.

There are many activities going on which aren't essential in the form of food supply or medical, but also don't involve any particular gatherings of the public. - Manufacturing, construction, distribution, business, finance, all kinds of services, energy. To shut these down might have a small impact on mixing but would have a huge impact on the economy, many business would collapse and the services could not be re started. This on top of the hospitality/event industry already shut down. So to say "why is X allowed to carrry on" that's usually the answer. The builder or landscape gardener needs to visit your home becuase that's their livelihood. Your friend visiting might be nice but it's optional.

It’s not just landscape gardeners and decking, who are working outdoors where the risk is probably negligible. I could legally hire teams of people to redecorate my home completely, paint, paper, carpet, hang the curtains. John Lewis will happily send a bloke in with a drill to hang my new telly on the wall and plug the cables in, although they request that I keep my distance while he does it.

I’m fairly sure that non-essential indoor work, including takeaway kitchens where the workers are usually shoulder to shoulder in a small space, is something which makes a significant impact on transmission and could be reduced without the country collapsing. However the cost to workers and/or the Treasury would be enormous, and the government have decided that they won’t go that far.

Part of the problem is that ppl tend to look only at one side. Example: Garage/MOT.
car owner: relatively safe, short contact, everything can be sanitized.
So common ppl would think that it is safe and why shouldn't they carry on?
workers: they are in the same indoor space 8-10 hours, every day. Albeit not shoulder to shoulder and they have ventilation, their risk is much higher, because they do not have to wear/chose not to wear masks whilst working.

Outcome: in the garage I know 13 out of 15 ppl are off sick with covid. 2 in hospital. And nobody is following up how many others they have infected involuntarily - spouse, kids, friends, corner shop,....
They kept open because of financial reasons, they had demand and there was extra demand created when the MOT deadline of dec 31 came.

In the past 11 months there would have been ample time for the gov to actually map out the real risks for each sector, each type of work/workplace. The fact that they haven't done this and let the individuals/owners decide is appalling!

It's the lack of thinking / anticipation that is saddening.

@TheSunIsStillShining

In the past 11 months there would have been ample time for the gov to actually map out the real risks for each sector, each type of work/workplace. The fact that they haven't done this and let the individuals/owners decide is appalling!

That's impossible as every workplace will be different. Different size, different layout, different heating/ventilation, different types of staff, different types of customer, etc.

Places where it would be possible would be places like McDonalds which have standardised premises, working practices, etc., within certain parameters.

If anyone attempted to do it by industry etc., it would be so generic to be virtually worthless.

An example of two places where I've worked, both similar sized accountancy practices with similar numbers of staff.

One was in a large open plan area (converted church) which literally everyone working in the same room, and a couple of "meeting room" areas partitioned off in the corners. Another was in a Georgian terraced house, spread over 4 floors, a real rabbit warren of small rooms all over the building, each with only 1 or 2 people.

So, as I say, any official "advice" or risk assessment for the general practice accountancy industry would be as useless as a chocolate fireguard because the risks/mitigations for such different buildings would be completely different.

Surely we're not going far enough. Close all workplaces, including of course all shops; stop all deliveries; close water and sewage plants; close all power stations; all on-the-ground council services to be stopped. Obviously close the borders - the food and PPE and other apparent "necessities" could be harbouring the virus. Hospitals are a clear point of transmission too, so at a push we could close them.
Depends on the cost/benefit analysis really.

@Justploddingon

It is just my opinion that takeaways are not an essential service. I do not lack empathy at all.

which is fine as long as you think the 1 million+ households without cooking facilities (or uncounted people with disabilities who can live independently but shouldn't cook) should never have a hot meal. Nor anyone on a long shift (such as paramedics). I don't think you'll find many people agree with you on that. Still, it's a view point you're allowed to hold.

It would have been calamitous to close the border with RoI. Half the stuff I write is ironic because people don't think thru the implications of what they are saying so i just spell it out bluntly. RoI uses UK as a landbridge for 100,000s of lorry journeys each year export/import with EU -- closing the borders have meant stopping all that transit to RoI, too. UK isn't half the "island" MNers think it is.

Norn is struggling with shortages right now, due to the little issue of Brexit. Just imagine if all those transit lorries suddenly stopped...

@DisgruntledPelican

Household mixing. That’s where it’s spreading.

It's really not. Workplaces are where it's spreading (such as manufacturing plants, warehouses, retail), in the schools that remain open, especially secondary ones, and in hospitals / care homes. Local coffee shops are still open around here for takeaway, with queues and people.chatting outside, which seems nuts.

Yes, household mixing is a really bad idea and we're certainly not doing it, indoor or out, but this is much more about big operations than individual decisions. You don't see as much of it on Mumsnet because not many posters work in sectors that are still open and working on premises, with the notable exception of NHS workers and many of those will be too busy to post, or in any case aren't going to be arguing that their workplace should close as non-essential.

@lljkk which is fine as long as you think the 1 million+ households without cooking facilities (or uncounted people with disabilities who can live independently but shouldn't cook) should never have a hot meal.

do you truly think that the 1 million people without cooking facilities are buying regular takeaways? If you're in that position (and I was myself, in the past), you are buying cheap pasta and boiling it in your kettle far more often than you are buying a cheeky nandos. I would have missed my 'treat' trips to the chippy, but for 4 weeks could have managed, not least because if I'd been able to afford to do them weekly, I could have afforded a second hand microwave.

Look at posts from someone like MoonlightFlitwick.
People with LDs or dementia... they can buy a bag of chips, they shouldn't cook it.

Ditto someone who would like a hot meal on a long shift out of home.

Anyway, the main thing is: did take-aways 7days ago lead to high new case counts today? Did take-aways 14 days ago lead to high hospitalisations today? Did take-aways 3 weeks ago (Christmas) lead to high death counts today?

Doesn't seem likely, does it?

Not disputing that, just the "why take away ANY sort of pleasure" comment

I thought it was obvious I meant why take away any sort of pleasure just because its pleasureable and not because its contributing to the spread. There is no evidence that takeaways or off licenses are adding to the spread. They dont involve gathering for extended periods and they provide beneficial and essential services. Just because you personally don't think they are necessary, doesnt mean they should be closed.

[quote SleepingStandingUp]@MoonlightFlitwick who do you shop with? We get priority slots with Tesco and I've on occasion even had next day delivery. They're 8 hour slots but you should be able to get over weekly.
Any restrictions will have to allow for people who need support and making buses key worker only is such a ridiculous idea that couldn't be checked so please don't worry[/quote]
Tesco, Asda and Morrisons are the only ones that deliver where I live. The nearest click and collect is a two hour bus journey away.
I think the slots are so limited because I live in a rural area.
Thank you.

It’s people not sticking to the rules. Not saying it’s everyone. But I working in a small convenience store and about 1/3 of people don’t wear masks and that’s not including those exempt and were told not to enforce it. And I’ve noticed around people aren’t distancing too. There’s not as many signs or tannoy announcements warning people to keep safe and keep 2 metres. Although I’ve heard that they may increase the distancing to 3 meters and some stores like Sainsbury’s are saying no mask no entry. And just had an email from Tesco’s saying there introducing a traffic light system one in one out. So hopefully this will help. But it’s also those who don’t wear masks and those who continue to socialise as normal who are causing problems. I have walked past groups of teenage school kids congregating together as they walk home from school taking up the whole path as if they don’t have a care in the world and they’re not helping too. But most kids don’t give two-hoots about anything except themselves.

Those saying they know where transmission is taking place - have you got any data sources? There were definitely some in the summer but I haven't seen any recently. Would be very interested.

If I see one more post about it being the fault of "people not sticking to the rules".

If only every single person could be perfectly obedient and obey all rules.

Unfortunatley, thats never going to happen, especially with Covid where it just takes one superspreader to start a lot of infections.

I really think its so unlikely to happen, and that this has been going on for so long now, that it has to be factored into lockdowns. ie a certain level of non-compliance is an endemic feature of lockdowns which will always affect their efficacy. I think compliance might be high for a month or two, but stretch that for well on going towards a whole year - of course non-compliance is going to increase.

Lockdows are an untested social experiment and don't come with any promise or working, at best they might slow down virus transmission but may also prolong the virus - no-one knows because they haven't been studied long term. But non-compliance is always going to be a feature of lockdowns, unless you actually start shooting people or welding them into their homes. Even then, there will probably still be a certain level of non-compliance.

Every single time we have a lockdown compliance is considered to be better than expected by those in authority

I do not live in the UK.

COVID-19 restrictions here (countrywide) consist of;

Mon - Thurs curfews from 9pm - 5am for all ages.

Fri 9pm - Mon 5am full lockdown for all ages.

Over 65's and anyone with chronic illness are only allowed outside their home between 10am - 1pm, Mon-Fri.

Over 65's and anyone with chronic illness are not allowed to use public transport.

Under 20's are only allowed out (with a parent/guardian) between 1pm - 4pm Mon - Fri.

Kindergartens, preschool, schools, higher education, universities have beef closed for months on end now. No sign of them opening any time soon.

All bars, restaurants, cafés etc. are delivery only and only between 8am - 10pm daily.

We all have a tracking/tracing code that we must produce to use airlines, public transport, enter government buildings, banks, hospitals, doctor's surgeries etc. No code, no entry.

Face masks are compulsory everwhere outside of your accommodation.

Smoking in busy areas is forbidden.

Maximum of 3 people in private vehicles, all wearing masks and windows open.

Anyone entering the country by land, air or sea must be able to produce a negative Covid test.

Direct entry from the UK is not allowed.

Anyone coming and has been in the UK within the previous 10 days will be taken to a government quarantine facility for a minimum of 10 days.

There's lots more restrictions but these are just a few off the top of my head so, believe me, the UK could (and should, in my opinion) bring in tougher restrictions!

Shame they don't just let under 20s out here just between 1pm and 4pm. Sounds like the regulations above by RLABC would suit me, retired, under 65 and could go out and there would no kids and teens about apart from set times.

I’m so sorry you’re missing out on that experience, it must be awful for you.

Everyone else on here just wants rules to suit themselves, you only have to look at those complaining that schools are shut and that nurseries might shut after threads screaming for everything to close down - everything that doesn't affect them it seems