Tighter restrictions? What else can be "tighter"??

[R2221]

Schools closed, work places closed, nailbars, hairdressers, clothes shops, closed. My high street is dead and a couple of big shops are permanently closing down. We've been totally indoors, going out only to get grocery and exercise.

Oh, gyms are closed, no play dates, birthdays, dinners or even coffee with friends. WHAT ELSE CAN BE DONE TO STOP THE SPREAD??? What would "tighter" restrictions mean? To me, next tighter level means no grocery and exercise :(

My local hospital is totally full. I don't understand why.

I bet the people who suggest no household mixings (no support bubbles) are ok to live on their own or content with their own household bubble but when you add young children/babies, mental health and other factors that qualify you to be in a support bubble into the mix they don't realise it's the support bubbles that has helped these people to survive for 9 months and right now now we are talking about this going on until Easter earliest. If support bubbles are removed, you might as well shoot these people now at least they don't have to live 3 more months of hell. What grinds my gears is if a guideline doesn't directly affect you it doesn't mean it won't affect others. It would be very very cruel to remove this whether meeting a friend for a walk (socially distanced) or using mum for childcare and support bubble. Some people don't realise that some areas have been nearly in lockdown throughout the whole year. We know the cause of the spread of this virus and now it's closed so in the next few weeks we will see a decrease.

@RedToothBrush

The garden centres are full of folk going for a look see.

Gardener here. This is my problem too. I do not want to go to the garden centre to buy equipment atm. Theres far too many browsers or people going for the home and gift stuff (particularly bad over Christmas) than actual gardening stuff.

Plus its still partly indoors and its still a non-essential journey.

My frustration with this is id like to support the local garden centres but they dont have proper online stores and i cant get the things i want even though i know they are instore. Id love better click and collect tbh.

Last year i did a fair percentage of my purchases for the year in January and February (before lockdown and it was apparent what was going to pan out) and im doing the same this year. January is my month for planning what im doing for the year before starting to plant seeds in Feb.

I have ended up getting stuff online, anyway. And not from the places id like to support most.

Im still pining over buying a Daphne. I can't get the one i want online. I know its at the garden centre just down the road.

I think this shows up a divide though. You have a bunch of people who think because a garden centre is open its fair game for any reason to go there. The flip to that are the people who want a certain plant pot, know they are in stock, just want to buy it, but still won't make an exclusive trip to get one as its a non essential trip. (My friend is doing exactly this btw. She's waiting until she has to next HAS to go past and she can click and collect or restrictions are eased a bit - even if they go out of stock in the meantime)

People are not hearing this message about non essential and have the mentally that if they shouldn’t be doing something the government will prevent them rather than taking the initiative for themselves. (We've seen this before btw: "If having a mortgage of over 100% was that bad, the government wouldnt let Northern Rock sell me one." Its an abdication of responsibility from the public)

You are so right in every way.

This pandemic has shown what a huge swath of selfish clods live among us.

No point then removing support bubbles as I imagine most would continue, I certainly would and I know my single household friends would too. As with lockdown 1, I bet the people calling for them to be stopped wouldn’t be happy to spend the next 2-3 months completely alone without any other human contact.

I envy people in small villages as i bet they are compliant.

Most of the village residents, yes. But unfortunately, we're just off a main road and close to a town. We have a couple of takeaways offering hot drinks, bacon buns, pies, etc. They're very busy with tradesmen and van drivers for their mid morning butty/pie, and their lunches, most of whom don't social distance nor wear a mask. After all, the likes of scaffolders and roofers obviously have a covid restriction exemption don't they?? Yes, it'd be a shame if they had to close as the business owners would suffer, but lots of other businesses have had to close for the duration. It seems a bit stupid to increase risks of covid spread just because some people are too bone idle to make their own packed lunches and seemingly couldn't survive the day without buying a bacon bap or pie.

We cant stop the spread. We need to plough more money into increasing hospital capacity and the NHS, because this lockdown is mostly to do with easing strain on the health service

@StrippedFridge

Surely the most likely tightening is on treatment? Overstretched NHS means harsher rationing. Too old, too ill, no hospital. That's what the government wants to avoid on a large scale of course but it might be unavoidable.

This should always have been the first line of defence IMO.

People in their 80s and 90s should not be taking up NHS resources to kep them alive even further beyond their natural life-expectancy than they already are.

We would then be able to focus on treating the 50-70 age group and younger CEV population.

We need to start focussing on life years saved, not just lives saved.

@Branleuse

We cant stop the spread. We need to plough more money into increasing hospital capacity and the NHS, because this lockdown is mostly to do with easing strain on the health service

But we can't train huge numbers of doctors and nurses in a few months, so your suggestion is impossible. We've been training too few medics for decades. It should have been tackled years/decades ago. There was even a time when even the doctors union refused to agree to more training places. If anything, covid has shown that we need to massively ramp up our medical schools/unis and probable double/treble the number of training places, so that we're no longer reliant on immigration. But you're not going to see any improvement for a decade or so.

I envy people in small villages as i bet they are compliant.

I think you might be surprised. There is a false sense of security in living in a community like that. 'Covid is happening elsewhere in the towns and cities we are safe here' type mentality. Until everyone in the village suddenly gets it at the same time.

And there is 'invasion of the dog walkers and day trippers' from the nearby towns and cities.

I suspect compliance is probably better but i still think there is a fair amount of people who think its not relevant to them to not mix indoors in small villages...

10 people in a supermarket at a time. Long queues will deter non essential shoppers.

10 customers? In a 30m x 50m premise? That's 150 m^2 per person. Don't you think that might be excessively low density?
Other Problem with that will be... each person who gets in will know it's their only chance, so they will be on the premises a lot longer to get a full week's shop. Would you still allow corner shops to be open in this scenario -- but they might be less than 150 m^2 in total. I'm not sure if that rate of footfall would be economically viable for the corner shop, they might have to close anyway. And There will be panic buying to prevent shortage until next allowed trip, too.

Straightforward ration cards might work better.

Its really difficult as I look at the news and makes me really scared of the things that are happening in hospitals, and cases spiralling, and so Im keeping supermarket trips to a minimum and trying not go anywhere else. (although I did end up going to the pet shop because my cats needed flea treating)
However if things are all open, a certain percentage of people are going to go "because they can" and without additional grants, shops are going to remain open "because they can". Its all very well saying "well theyve got the option of furlough" but there are so many overheads that are there regardless of whether the shop is open or not (rent, rates, utilities, insurance and security, phone bills, music licence, etc etc) I saw a guy on the news who owned 16 bars and clubs. He had borrowed £4 M () and was going back to the bank to try to borrow more. There will be so many small businesses in similar positions up to their eyeballs in debt and while I feel incredibly fearful for the health catastrophe I also can't blame businesses for being what some will label "selfish" to do whatever they can and whatever is lawful, to survive.
A lot Of MN think "business" or "the economy" means people on 6 figure salaries and CEOs. When Arcadia and Debenhams collapse it won't be Phillip Green wondering how he will feed his children , pay rent, or buy new shoes, it will be those who work on NMW.

International travel to be exception based only e.g. medical care/care for a relative/funeral etc.

Stop all these loopholes of travelling (mostly to Dubai) for work and/or training camps - yes Instagram influencers and Celtic Football Club I am looking at you

Same principle for internal UK border crossings but with the addition of work or university. It’s already guidance for Scotland travelling to England but what does ‘guidance’ mean? Are people actually getting their reason for travel checked when they board a train

[quote Skipsurvey]@TrustTheGeneGenie

you know i was simply sharing a scenario which concerned me

you do what you like, absolutely no need to be some argumentative.
i dont care what you do personally, as long as you dont take my place in the queue for the hospital/vaccine.[/quote]
take your place? bold to assume you'll be before me!

I think Chris Whitty hit the nail on the head by saying, think what you can do, not about other people.

I could do lots of things but I am working from home and not meeting other people. I don't feel I've "wasted" my chance to meet a person or go to a garden centre or Starbucks or send my child to school becuase that would technically be allowed.
The more people like me, who do have alternatives, reduce our contacts, then it leaves places less busy for key workers and people who can't WFH.

It would be a real shame if people who are doing their best to keep the country and economy going, out and about, found there were no public toilets or builders merchants or places to get a drink or shop after their shift, because the "leisure users" had forced them to close.

@FancySomeChips

COVID deniers should be fined. Still parents refuse to wear masks at the school gates Stand there laughing and gassing with no 2m distance

3 of them caught it last wk and one is in hospital- still sending their kids in (refuse to get them tested, no symptoms) and we can’t do anything about it as they said the magic words- key worker (one is a sahm but has told the head she just got a job in a special school- how do we prove otherwise- we know 100% she has not).

fined for having a different belief? wow- that sets an interesting president, doesn't it? Slightly reminiscent of Germany quite a few years back. Should we make them all wear badges, too?

(and i 100% do believe its real btw)

@DenisetheMenace

Meredithgrey1

How are people getting it in supermarkets though? From getting too close to people? Touching infected items? Aerosols in the air (despite wearing a mask)?”

Not going into supermarkets any more but last time I did, so many people still picking things up, looking at them then putting them back. Rummaging through the packs of meat and bacon to find the best ones, etc.
If they were asymptomatically positive, they were leaving virus on everything they touched. On hard surfaces like tin and plastic, it can survive for 72 hours.

if everyone is washing their hands like they should be, that shouldn't be a problem. How do you think they get it on the shelves?

Lockdown where I am in the Middle East was very strict (but admittedly brief)

No leaving your home unless:

• Seeking medical treatment
• Shopping for groceries (maximum 3 times a week per household)
• Going to work (essential workers only - and they were very strict about what 'essential' meant)

No exercise, no popping next door to give a parcel to your neighbour, no taking the dog for a walk, or letting the kids go round the block on their bikes.

All of the above required going onto the Police app and applying for a permit. You had to give your name, address, ID number, where you were going, when, and why.

There was also a strict curfew (can't remember the exact timings but around 9pm-6am) Anyone out after that again required a permit.

Police were stopping people out asking to see their permits and speed cameras were flashing everyone who passed. You would be then issued with be a hefty fine unless you showed you had been awarded a permit.

I will never agree that no exercise is a good idea. Its a really really bad idea. One very efficient way of making everyone that little bit more vulnerable to the thing you're supposed to be protecting them from, and it goes back to the locking up children thing, its inhumane and i will never agree that its a reasonable measure to take.

Not going into supermarkets any more but last time I did, so many people still picking things up, looking at them then putting them back. Rummaging through the packs of meat and bacon to find the best ones, etc.
If they were asymptomatically positive, they were leaving virus on everything they touched. On hard surfaces like tin and plastic, it can survive for 72 hours.
Hand-washing/sanitiser is the answer here. And not touching your face until you've washed or applied.

I will never agree that no exercise is a good idea.
Me either.

No exercise? I’d do it anyway, pretty sure most would

CountessFrog

“No exercise? I’d do it anyway, pretty sure most would“

I agree. I have followed all of the rules pretty much but this would be a no no for me. As a family we need to exercise daily (walks and runs mainly) and this includes our dog.

No exercise means more ill health.

Yes, us too. We live pretty rurally and I go tramping across the fields. I’ll never stop.

I work in the nhs in labs surrounded by people, wearing a mask being carful. But no possibility of distancing as not enough room. Worked through both lockdowns and kids at school. I dont understand why teachers can't go to school too. Why can't they wear masks. Tgey are more likely to be able to distance than us in our cramped labs! I just don't understand it at all.

In some other countries you require approval to leave the house, period. You sent a text to a certain number and get a yes or no.

One local authority near us definitely expected a letter from the employer to say you were a keyworker. Is that not normal?