Help me debunk my dad's skepticism on covid

[piddocktrumperiness]

Hello all
My father, whom I love very dearly is sucking the energy out of me. He is 70 years old, a retired doctor and every time I speak to him, he insists that there is "something insidious going on behind the scenes". He is suspicious of how deaths are recorded, he is suspicious of how the majority of 'world' governments "conspire" to come up with lockdowns and therefore ruining their economies- claiming there are some interests there, somebody wants all this to happen. He is suspicious of why countries that are poorer than ours, are thriving. He even said "countries like Bangladesh should have had most of their citizens dead from covid by now if it was THAT serious". He also said the same about India and China and parts of the Middle East and Africa, despite me telling him their past experiences with epidemics prepared them for this. He is questioning why the nightingale hospital is not open and doesn't believe that hospitals are over run. He also says the fact that he doesn't know anyone that suffered badly from it proves his point. :(

He's hard work. He gets his news from youtube and discounts anything the BBC says. I feel frustrated and he puts any argument I put forward down.

I was hoping if anyone here can point me to articles, that I can show him, that are not BBC because he won't believe it, or help me verbalise what I want to say.

I freeze up when he yells about this stuff and all he can reply is "How do you know for sure? Don't believe everything you see!" :(

I love and admire him but I am shocked that as a doctor, he doesn't see the severity of. the situation we have been in.

Bet your Dad is as frustrated with you as you are with him. Have to agree with your Dad the BBC is untrustworthy.

I agree that not all things are equal, but the stats[yes I know they wont be 100% accurate] show startling differences between say the continents of Europe and Africa.

although this is written for Americans I like the phrase "focus on connecting, not convincing"
www.verywellmind.com/how-to-talk-to-a-covid-denier-5089630
Also a couple of posters have pointed to some things that could be happening mentally/emotionally for your Dad given that you say this is a big change in behaviour for him to not be able to look at evidence in the round and notice things such as the main dangers for Covid being mostly absent in populations with a younger demographic.

I've lived in countries with free basic healthcare and no electricity during some parts of the day. Some of them also had mortality statistics more than 6 months out of date in any given year.

That's a few years ago. I didn't even bother looking up their official stats over the last year, because I have no expectation that their stats will be recent enough to give a meaningful picture. I mean, South Africa's record keeping might be not too bad, but Malawi's is likely to be hopelessly out of date.

I've just looked up their age pyramids though. Caveat: these might not be 100% up to date because of the data lag. Incredibly, the median age in Malawi was 18.1 years. Please god that will help them.

www.populationpyramid.net/malawi/2019/
www.worldometers.info/world-population/malawi-population/

I've lost track of what the countries-comparison you started was for?

Was it to address the Q: Is variability proof of conspiracy?

Having lived in very, very varied countries, where health services typically misattribute deaths because they don't have facilities to exactly determine cause of death (eg fevers just get considered to be malaria, whether or no), I haven't seen anything that makes me leap to believe there's a conspiracy involved to fake Covid.

(I'm absolutely sure people left, right and centre will be profiteering from it though. Sadly that's very predictable.)

@lightand

No middle east, bangladesh, Africa, China, India amongst them, as your doctor dad says.

Obesity rate in Bangladesh 3%, Brazil 19%, UK 25%, US 40%. Africa varies massively by country as does COVID so really not data you can lump.

Over 65 age Bangladesh 5%, Brazil 9%, UK 18%, US 16.5%. Africa again varies wildly by country. Averages around 3% I believe but may be a bit higher.

And sunshine helps because of vitamin D.

It isn't rocket science. A skinny young person, which is what the vast majority of people in Bangladesh and Africa are, who spends all day in the hot sun, sails through this. An old, overweight person with diabetes, low vitamin D, a heart issue, COPD who is being kept 'healthy' with a lot of medication, and never leaves their house, won't.

Plus there may be factors like living closer to animals, catching a lot of other things like coronaviruses, even parasites (or the drugs used to treat them) which could be protective.

Thank fuck because the majority world has enough to worry about.

I'm just imagining @lightand in the Middle Ages saying, "wherefore the grooms have nary a pox on them? Forsooth they conspire with the monks. Prithy". [Disclaimer: all language entirely made up]? Nope, horses are protective. Many interesting things are proving to be a factor, that doesn't mean there's a conspiracy.

Hear hooves, think horse, not zebras. AKA Occam's Razor.

I really, really hope all those factors you've mentioned come through for the majority world, especially countries nearer the tropics than the UK, MrsTerryPratchett.

As you say, they have enough to worry about. My nearest and dearest live in such countries, so this is from the heart. Although TBH we've lost so many people in recent years it's more a case of, "FFS what now."

Your dad is absolutely right.

Although TBH we've lost so many people in recent years it's more a case of, "FFS what now."

So sorry for that @PerkingFaintly

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the majority world stays safer. And maybe this will install a bit of empathy about what it's like to live with disease.

Your Dad is challenging what he is being told. So am I and many others.
Just because it's not your view doesn't make him wrong. He's entitled to his opinion.

Don’t get involved in any discussion over it. Just smile and say that’s nice and change the subject, you are not going to get him to change his mind so don’t waste your time

He's a retired doctor??

Doesn't he read the BMJ any more? it's really worrying some of the stuff he's saying.I'd be thinking early onset dementia to be honest.

Just tell him you don't want to hear it any more.

He doesn't respect your opinion, experience or ability to analyse evidence. That is not going to change.

All valid points mentioned here, thank you. The only bit I take issue with is the conspiracy angle. I cannot really argue his points about poorer countries as I do not know what has gone on there with regards to registration of deaths and my knowledge comes from UK press and tv coverage as well as the parliament papers. My dad believes someone wanted this to all happen, that covid was unleashed on the west deliberately, by the world govts which funnily he doesn't include China in. If anything he believes that the Americans were involved (He's pro Russian which confuses me even more as neither country are doing well in this pandemic- why would they kill their own citizens, as collateral for what exactly?and why?).

He sees how the West have suffered and the economic catastrophe that ensued from all the lockdowns and argues that the lockdowns are insidious tactics by the governments to eventually totally control its people and to feed their interests. One step closer in that direction after all- to a totalitarian state.

Again, I think he's giving this govt too much credit if he thinks Boris and Co are 'controlling' anything.

He and I generally do not trust governments, in their day to day politics that is. We both do not like the current govt for example, so we are always sceptical of what they do. The virus however in my opinion is not a party virus- not a Tory virus, not a pro business anti environment virus. It's a virus, and I do not see the reaction in other countries as disproportionate. I think other countries handled it much better. I think the insane number of deaths here is attributed to poor management of the crisis not the virus itself, and not because it was 'unleashed' on us in the west. If this country adopted better policies to deal with it, and deal with it earlier we wouldn't be even in a situation to entertain any conspiracy.

Further, I trust the science more than any policy maker and I do not why a scientist would lie about the spread of the virus, and ways to limit transmission. I believe that when something doesn't make sense we create conspiracies, but we've been here before, 100 years ago. We see these things happen many times, just because it now affects us in the west doesn't quite mean there is a conspiracy against the west (by the west!) I don't get it but I'll switch subjects with him.

As ever, thank you for taking time and sharing your opinions. Have a lovely week all!

He's right
Listen to
Him

It's his way of coping.

@MrsTerryPratchett
Japan has highest rate of older population in the world, 28%. Their cv figures very good.

I agree not all things are equal.

Maybe there is something going on, maybe not.

In spare time, I will look into all this some more.

I agree with your Dad, there is something insidious going on. But as long as a follows the rules and get vaccinated, why are you trying to force your opinion down his throat?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index
Not exactly the order of the countries hitting the headlines for being overrun with coronavirus!

I think I would try and get him to talk about when he was working, ask him which was the toughest winter he worked through, any really difficult cases or challenging situations.
Ask him what he thinks about the use of CPAP in treating patients with covid, was he suprised that dexamethasone has proven so useful, how often did they have to prone patients when he was working ?
Try and frame the questions so he answers from an anaesthetist's point of view.

I think there's a whole spectrum of views and opinions.

It's not a binary choice of full on conspiracy theorist or drone like sheep who never questions anything the government says.

I don't know where I said or gave the impression I was forcing my opinion. I was asking for articles so I can have a healthy debate that's all.
He isn't following lockdown rules and won't take the vaccine. I am not arguing that. I was just looking for evidence to help me debate with him rather than have nothing to say and only hear that I am stupid whenever I voice my opinion.

another view so that I don't come across as ignorant in his eyes

I really sympathise, but I found that one significant sign of my parent's encroaching age was that they just seemed to lack the capacity to think critically.

Scary, but I found it pointless to argue with them. They no longer had any real control over my life, so I just smokes and nodded and changed the subject when I felt myself getting too cross.

It's big fun. Take it easy on yourself.

Op I'm with you! Also shocked at how many people on here agree with your Dad 🤦