Help me debunk my dad's skepticism on covid

[piddocktrumperiness]

Hello all
My father, whom I love very dearly is sucking the energy out of me. He is 70 years old, a retired doctor and every time I speak to him, he insists that there is "something insidious going on behind the scenes". He is suspicious of how deaths are recorded, he is suspicious of how the majority of 'world' governments "conspire" to come up with lockdowns and therefore ruining their economies- claiming there are some interests there, somebody wants all this to happen. He is suspicious of why countries that are poorer than ours, are thriving. He even said "countries like Bangladesh should have had most of their citizens dead from covid by now if it was THAT serious". He also said the same about India and China and parts of the Middle East and Africa, despite me telling him their past experiences with epidemics prepared them for this. He is questioning why the nightingale hospital is not open and doesn't believe that hospitals are over run. He also says the fact that he doesn't know anyone that suffered badly from it proves his point. :(

He's hard work. He gets his news from youtube and discounts anything the BBC says. I feel frustrated and he puts any argument I put forward down.

I was hoping if anyone here can point me to articles, that I can show him, that are not BBC because he won't believe it, or help me verbalise what I want to say.

I freeze up when he yells about this stuff and all he can reply is "How do you know for sure? Don't believe everything you see!" :(

I love and admire him but I am shocked that as a doctor, he doesn't see the severity of. the situation we have been in.

Is he putting others at risk? Fine for people to be sceptics. Not fine if they believe they’re invincible and potentially harm others. You could show him a Facebook page - Humans of Covid 19 - first hand accounts of the crisis from NHS workers on the front line. Harrowing but anyone who looked at this and was still sceptical belongs in tin foil hat land and unfortunately they’re probably beyond help...

Great news!

The government have listened to you, wanderings!

Here is the government's own website, dated 18 December 2020:
"For most people, COVID-19 will be a mild illness"

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-stay-at-home-guidance/stay-at-home-guidance-for-households-with-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection

There! That's what you wanted them to say – and they've said it.

I mean, I wouldn't believe Dominic Cummings if he told me the time of day. B Johnston neither.

Incredibly, at the same time as this, I don't think it's helpful to go round inventing shit about certain death.

Why is it some sort of crime to have an opinion of your own these days?

Back off OP. Your dad is 70 ffs, he can decide for himself what he thinks

@borntohula said " Yeah I saw it phrased 'died after testing positive for covid...' Should it not be 'died of covid' if it were exactly that? "

Yes, "died of covid or died with covid". Big difference.

[quote Unsure33]@drinkingwineoutofamug

That is shocking . One of the worse things I have heard .[/quote]
Is it really the worst thing you have ever heard?

I can’t fathom how a disagreement of opinion can be the worst thug you’ve ever heard?

I don’t doubt that there are powerful institutions who profit from lockdowns just the same as with Brexit. But the rest...it isn’t hard to find out how deaths are recorded. If he’s really a retired medical doctor he will know where to get that information. He should be experienced at objectively evaluating evidence, questioning things intelligently and understanding the reliability or not of various information sources. I’m not sure there’s anything you can say if he’s lost his skills of critical evaluation.

Yes I’ll back off
Please don’t think I’m blindly trusting this inept govt. They have blundered their way through this. I staunchly despise them but at the same time, seeing that this is a global pandemic, and looking at how other govts have handled the situation, I don’t see a conspiracy.
I’d be giving this govt too much credit to think they can conspire.
I’m just looking and comparing the global response and concluded that it can’t be a conspiracy. Pandemics happen, and if many are locking down it’s probably because of the crisis simulation practice whatever the epidemiologists and public health experts believe at the time works best. It might be a tried and tested approach seeing that countries in SE Asia have faired better, as have countries like New Zealand.
Deaths in this country were the result of poor governance and government. Poor everything really. As I argue, we are an island, and it’s embarrassing that this where we are.
No conspiracy though.
But I will back off and let him say what he wants as you all suggest.
Thank you

@formerbabe

Ok I will give you another scenario *@BlueBaubles12*

Cancer patient at end of life but who catches covid? How is that recorded?

A person admitted to hospital with a heart attack who dies but had covid three weeks ago?

Two consultants have to agree to what diagnosis to put on the death certificate. COVID diagnosis or not, if it is a clear case of heart attack or cancer, THAT is what is it on the death certificate. If the the pt tested positive, is sent home but delevops complications from the initial infection, ie, sepsis, a fall, a DVT/PE etc.. then COVID is it on and worded thus " PE as a complication of COVID. You do not get registered as dying of COVID if you die in a RTC, even if you tested positive in the 4 weeks previous.

I have been thinking about what your dad said, all evening.
He is right I think, it doesnt make sense, how some countries are faring way way way better than others.

I remember someone saying to me at the beginning "when the virus sweeps through some countries, it will be catastrophic because of their lack of health services".

That has largely been the exact opposite of what has happened. Your dad is right. It doesnt make sense.

Many countries, with the better health services, have fared the worst.

The U.S. ranks 15th.
No. 8: Australia. ...
No. 7: Japan. ...
No. 6: United Kingdom. ...
No. 5: Germany. Best Health Care System Rank: 5. ...
No. 4: Norway. Best Health Care System Rank: 4. ...
No. 3: Sweden. Best Health Care System Rank: 3. ...
No. 2: Denmark. Best Health Care System Rank: 2. ...
No. 1: Canada. Best Health Care System Rank: 1.
More items...

Countries With the Most Well-Developed Public Health Care ..

No middle east, bangladesh, Africa, China, India amongst them, as your doctor dad says.

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/countries-where-coronavirus-has-spread/
Figures for African countries on the whole are astoundingly low - yes I know that there may not be the best record keeping, but even so..

Given we know that mortality form Covid is higher among the older, we would expect countries with older populations to have higher death rates.

This is Bangladesh's population pyramid, showing numbers of people in each age group in 2019: www.populationpyramid.net/united-kingdom/2019/

This is the UK's: www.populationpyramid.net/united-kingdom/2019/

This is Japan's: www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2019/

I wonder how those compare with percentage Covid deaths?

I would just avoid the conversation / change the subject.

Brazil - not a high amount of elderly, yet its death rate from covid is comparatively high.

www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
According to this, it is actually largely European countries which appear to have fared worse

Australia has had 909 deaths from Covid in total since the outbreak began.
www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

The UK had 1162 deaths recorded on the day of 7 Jan 2021 alone.
www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

There are caveats about that being the day on which the death is recorded, so some bunching after weekends, and also I haven't checked the Aus criteria for whether that's deaths with Covid or of Covid, and what language they use round that.

The Australians had very harsh early lockdowns, as I know from family living under them. They also have a smaller population: 25,499,884 in mid-2020 as opposed to the UK's 67,886,011.

www.worldometers.info/world-population/australia-population/
www.worldometers.info/world-population/uk-population/

So, a lot of variables come into play when comparing countries.

@lightand

I have been thinking about what your dad said, all evening. He is right I think, it doesnt make sense, how some countries are faring way way way better than others.

I remember someone saying to me at the beginning "when the virus sweeps through some countries, it will be catastrophic because of their lack of health services".

That has largely been the exact opposite of what has happened. Your dad is right. It doesnt make sense.

@lightand

Covid is mostly a disease of the old and the clinically vulnerable, and people live longer and live on with complex conditions in wealthier counties.

Plus, countries with stronger and more advanced infrastructures formally record vastly more information eg what people get sick from and what they die of, because they have the resources to do it.

So it does make sense. I also remember people speculating about what Covid would do to poorer countries, but that was before people had registered which groups were vulnerable

Brazil - not a high amount of elderly, yet its death rate from covid is comparatively high.

Is that a country with a better healthcare system, or worse? (Sorry, I don't have the source you used for the ranking of healthcare systems above.)

@PerkingFaintly
I dont know all there is to know about their health service, but it is largely free, like ours. Not considered bad, as far as I know.

Try this with your dad 'Look Dad, we have diametrically opposed views on Covid. There's no point in discussing it because neither of us are going to change our views and it will just turn into a heated argument' - and then change the subject, every time

we would expect countries with older populations to have higher death rates.

And I should have qualified that by adding, "... all else being equal."

In fact as we're now discussing, all else isn't equal, because Covid-prevention measures and healthcare-availability varies. But there's some level of value in using an estimation of what would happen without any Covid-prevention as a baseline.

I wouldnt expect covid prevention measures and healthcare availability to be all that great in many countries in the African continent, yet their covid deaths are recorded as negligible, compared to so many European countries for example. There hardly seems to be a pandemic there, in the slightest.