Sir Keir Starmer calling for nursery closure!

[Boogie5678]

Sorry I’m not sure how to link this but it’s on BBC news.

@GypsyLee

He's the voice of reason. Wish he was PM, schools and childcare are a bloody nuisance where covid is concerned.

So what do you propose those who work in front line roles do when the nurseries inevitably say sorry we cannot open as it's not xost effective... People need to start looking atvthe bigger picture. Closing nurseries will have a much bigger impact on removing critical key workers compared to the risk of spread by leaving them open.

by the way there are an estimated 76000 early years providers, 27000 of which are nurseries - 1.3 million children have early years care in a setting registered with Ofsted

Isn't reception year included as part of early years provision too? If so it would be interesting to see the split in cases by actual setting- nursery / childminder / reception to find out exactly where any issues are.

Maybe the playpen will make a comeback

@TheWashingMachine

I think they should definitely be closed, it is unfair on everyone else who is trying to protect themselves.

Why can't they take unpaid leave from their jobs? Its what working parents mothers are being asked to do

Have you ever tried to care full-time for a toddler while both working full-time, @GypsyLee, especially if both jobs involve calls, meetings and other things that can't be done in the middle of the night? It is loads easier if there are two of you than one - in that it is actually impossible if there is one of you - but it is still unbelievably hard, unsustainable and involves a level of 'care' for the child that would be considered neglectful under any other circumstances. And not everyone has jobs where you can just unilaterally 'cut hours'

The closure of schools and nurseries affects mainly women and as such the impact is largely ignored

And the largely ignored early years workforce are also mainly women being asked to put their own health and families at risk - difficult but an acceptable risk when caring for smaller number of key worker and vulnerable families - impossible and an unacceptable risk when caring for children of SAHP or children who could be cared for at home - even when that is difficult - sorry but, as I’ve already said, this is all difficult. Prioritise early years staff for vaccinations now and then we stand a chance of getting back to normal as fast as we can.

@SoRuff63 - but that is NOT evidence of nurseries driving spread! It could be evidence of a lot of things e.g. nursery incidence reflecting that of community, or other permutations of variables, but data for two discrete timepoints at which community levels were vastly different do not statistically demonstrate that the nursery itself is driving community spread.

@Heartlantern2. In the case of twins, I'd definitely recommend strapping them into separate buggies if you're going to leave them unsupervised for 9 hours.

I have friends with twins and they can do quite a lot of damage to each other if they're strapped side to side and annoyed or hungry for whatever reason.

@AgnesNaismith yep I shared and filled that one out too. It's defo worth doing. The reason I think there should be a full parliamentary debate on this in addition to a specific set of demands (which is what I suspect TUC will do) is because none of the answers are straight forward. For e.g we know that if the gov makes it easier (and less financially onerous) to take paid childcare leave, that will disproportionately be taken by women, not men, so it will still be women missing out on the pay, training and career. That's one of the reasons the petition also calls for the impact of this on women and children to be closely monitored and made transparent. Personally I want all large employers to be required to publish impact assessments this time next year showing how their response to school/childcare closures impacted on equalities between men and women in their workplace. I suspect we are going to see a lot of men doing quite well once their female competitors are busy doing the childcare, for example. But forcing companies to have to publish that information will make them think twice about how they tackle this - not just shoving women under bus after bus after bus.
Lots of really interesting discussion about this on the feminist chat board if any are interested www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4120730-School-closures-Thousands-of-women-have-just-had-their-double-shift-doubled

side by side

It would be good to at least leave enough time to see if the existing measures are making a difference before we knee-jerk into another round of restrictions.

From the discussion on this thread it seems that there isn't a clear answer to how much this would actually help reduce transmission vs. the multiple negative impacts on children, working families, women, businesses, the economy etc. and if it is therefore a good idea.

@InterfectoremVulpes

by the way there are an estimated 76000 early years providers, 27000 of which are nurseries - 1.3 million children have early years care in a setting registered with Ofsted

Isn't reception year included as part of early years provision too? If so it would be interesting to see the split in cases by actual setting- nursery / childminder / reception to find out exactly where any issues are.

Those numbers of total places definitely don't include schools - they include the caveat that Childcare in early years also occurs in the schools sector. This takes place in state-funded schools and independent schools. Since May 2015, childcare on non-domestic premises that are part of a school are not required to register on the EYR if they are only looking after children aged 2 and over. - and I don't think the coronavirus in early years settings do either for the same reason, I don't think schools have to notify.

That will be up to them and their partner, no reason they should leave, make the men do their share and cut hours, and provide childcare , so their partner/wife can work

In a lot (Not all!) Of cases this would mean going way back in history and rewriting equality/male privilege.

In a lot (Not all!) Of cases this would mean going way back in history and rewriting equality/male privilege.

Exactly. It’s so facile to just say ‘make men do their share’ when there are so many systemic barriers to this.

@SoRuff63

The closure of schools and nurseries affects mainly women and as such the impact is largely ignored

And the largely ignored early years workforce are also mainly women being asked to put their own health and families at risk - difficult but an acceptable risk when caring for smaller number of key worker and vulnerable families - impossible and an unacceptable risk when caring for children of SAHP or children who could be cared for at home - even when that is difficult - sorry but, as I’ve already said, this is all difficult. Prioritise early years staff for vaccinations now and then we stand a chance of getting back to normal as fast as we can.

This @SoRuff63

Thanks you for recognising that the early year’s work form are mainly women too, who also deserve a safe working environment.

I went to Boots now.
Was driving past Asda.
So packed the carpark.
Also people walking in bunches of 5-6.
Shocking.
Luckily the Boots were pretty much empty as on suburbs.
There needs to be much stricter lockdown then this..

Thanks @Femin1st everything you’ve said makes perfect sense, heading over to the board for a read now. 💪🙌

Nursery use by children who are going to socialise when a non-working parent is at home must be stopped and all nursery closure needs to be seriously considered where there are two WFH parents who can take it in turns to do childcare and work.

We both work full time in jobs which do involve several video calls a day each. We are keeping our thirteen month old home from nursery, because we feel it just isn’t safe- for her, for us, or for the staff. Our nursery had no cases from June to December. In the last few days before Christmas they had four - staff and children. Another suspected case on Friday was waiting for a test. The sister nursery also had to close a bubble just before Christmas. Our good friends nearby, a family of four, all caught Covid brought home by their daughter from another local nursery. Where we live it’s spreading like wildfire.
So we’re making it work as best we can. I feel so sorry for the staff who have no choice but to work in what I think are unsafe conditions.

So much childcare in our area closed and didn't reopen...breakfast and after school provision through schools stopped and never restarted in September, a number of childminders closed. We have been struggling both working out of the home with no wrap around care and now both work across 6 or 7 days a week leaving us exhausted with no family time. My point is that closing nurseries now mean that some just may not reopen again and that has a huge impact on working families after this mess is over. At least that is what has happened in my area for primary school aged children.

@GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat

I’m a childminder, my business won’t survive if I do have to close again. Many nurseries are in the brink. Parents need their childcare to be available from the very day they can go back to work themselves and this work happen if we are forced out of business. It’s a lose lose situation.

Agree with this (no dog in this particular fight, as my DC have largely left school).

We need to keep nurseries open. If Stamer thinks it is easy to look after a toddler whilst working may be parents need to dump 20 toddlers on him to care for.

@Hardbackwriter

Have you ever tried to care full-time for a toddler while both working full-time, *@GypsyLee*, especially if both jobs involve calls, meetings and other things that can't be done in the middle of the night? It is loads easier if there are two of you than one - in that it is actually impossible if there is one of you - but it is still unbelievably hard, unsustainable and involves a level of 'care' for the child that would be considered neglectful under any other circumstances. And not everyone has jobs where you can just unilaterally 'cut hours'

Where there are two parents it's up to them to sort, not the state, especially during a pandemic. I lost my work, so I know what it's like.

@Freddiefox - the argument for prioritising early years staff for vaccinations leaves me torn because:

a) I LOVE our nursery staff and want them safe, and want them to get the vaccination as soon as possible. I want to make sure that they and their families are okay because they are incredible.

BUT

b) no current evidence that vaccination stops spread, just that it stops people getting seriously ill. So unfortunately staff could catch it and carry it to more vulnerable family members even if vaccinated.

which is why

c) as a country we are trying to vaccinate the vulnerable first because this is where the pressure on the NHS is coming from, and the point of the lockdown is to reduce NHS pressure as a whole.

So vaccinating staff MAY not reduce community spread. Obviously vaccinating vulnerable or older staff is an absolute no-brainer and should be done asap. Also as soon as we have evidence that vaccination DOES reduce spread, the nursery workers and school staff need to be near the front of that queue ....

Where there are two parents it's up to them to sort, not the state

It’s not the state here. School nurseries are shut. Private businesses / nurseries are open.