Chris Whitty in The Times today - don't meet friends and family unnecessarily

[MrsMiaWallis]

"Emergency patients will be turned away from hospitals, causing “avoidable deaths”, unless the public starts obeying the lockdown, England’s chief medical officer warns today.
In a stark intervention designed to shock, Professor Chris Whitty warns that everyone who meets friends and family unnecessarily is a “link in a chain” that threatens the lives of vulnerable people"

Worth noting. I had to pick up a prescription from my local town and was surprised to see so many people - mainly middle aged women, some of whom I know and had always seemed like rational intelligent people - walking around town and chatting on the pavements, unmasked, no social distancing.

Apologies I don't know how to do share tokens.

The biggest issue for many of my friends and parents at daughter’s school is this time their employer is not allowing them to work from home or be furloughed ( for childcare) where they were last time. Friends where WFH was fine last time- not for them personally per se but from a work point of view but their managers just don’t like it. Many of them have been told they can count as key workers even if they feel they really are not. Surely this is something that can and should really be cracked down on and would make a big impact- their children wouldn’t be in school plus they would t be commuting/ in an office etc etc. Think this would have a bigger impact and is more enforceable than trying to monitor who is really in a person’s support bubble/or the nuance of what is acceptable when out for a walk!

I rad the last few pages in the thread, can't be bothered to go back further.
I very much doubt Whitty was talking about a walk with a friend outdoors. He's talking about the person popping round to a friend having done their "own risk assessment" or deciding that they and the friend will be OK as they are young and fit. Or the people who have multiple "support bubbles".

[quote Katie517]@SecretSpAD you quite clearly don’t sympathise with peoples mental health issues if you are calling for stricter lockdowns and only focusing on covid. What about people who die unnecessarily from their mental health issues because they simply can’t cope anymore? Do those people not matter? Are they just simply collateral damage in our one dimensional fight against covid? A previous poster has already said she is suffering from PND and walking with a friend is really helping her do you want that “luxury” taken away? The lack of balance in some of these posts is awful.[/quote]
I think I probably sounded more unfeeling than I meant, sorry. I do have a lot of sympathy for people with genuine mental health issues - I have two children here who have needed a lot of support with their mental health following the death of their mother.

It is the vast numbers of people who use mental health as an excuse to break the rules when actually, they are just bored and pissed off. We're all bored and pissed off.

I certainly don't think that covid is the only important thing, but the face remains that we have a lot of people in our hospitals suffering from the effects of this virus and that is impacting on every other service. The fact that the NHS is crumbling because people keep voting in a party that systematically underfunds and destroys it is a fight for another day. We have to deal with the crisis that we are in and that is covid.

It's the word 'unnecessarily' that is the problem. It leaves it up to the individual to decide, and clearly many individuals are too thick/selfish/uncaring to know what it really means given the circumstances. Those who say 'whatever, it's my life, I'll take the risk' - well that is itself is completely moronic too. You are putting others at risk, and they are doing the same, etc etc, and then you'll be occupying a bed and ventilator in the NHS, which should really be going to someone who DIDN'T have this who-gives-a-fuck attitude. Not to mention all the NHS staff - and their families - who are put further at risk from YOU. I honestly fucking despair every day when I see the news, and wish I lived in a country where the people, in general, have some common sense and collective responsibility.

@Onlinedilema

I'm giving you examples. Let's face facts here young, fit people are not in the main dying from covid . It's the elderly and those with underlying conditions. There are some exceptions obviuosly.

again, hospitals if they get overrun will mean young fit and healthy people can't get treatment. sorry to repeat myself to you @Onlinedilema are you not taking in that point for any particular reason?

@LucilleTheVampireBat

I'm not going to stop saying this - lobby for the housing market to be closed or at least restricted.

6 surveyors at my practice. Each visited at least 4 fully occupied houses per day last week. That's well over 100 instances of household mixing in one week and we are a small firm so imagine how much risk is being taken in the big firms.

agree! my friend is vulnerable but is showing 6 families round new homes this weekend as part of her ea job

@Onlinedilema

Nobody wants people to die. However if you ask an 'ordinary' person, one who isn't lucky enough to have been born into wealth and priviledge, perhaps someone who works in a supermarket and is a single parent. Ask them are you prepared to lose your job, your only income , lose your home and possibly your children so that a stranger whose family haven't seen them in 10 years can live an extra 6 months what do you think they would say?

ODFOD, stop with the 'Mavis in a care home' shit, what about 30 year old mother Sarah who happens to have diabetes? I guess it's ok for her kids to end up motherless?

Or 38 year old Peter who has Rheumatoid Arthritis and the medication he takes puts him on the shielding list?

But hey even though both are on treatment that means they have a long life ahead of them if it weren't for covid, they have underlying health conditions so are clearly expendable. So what about 21 year old Katie who is in a car accident and can't get a hospital bed fast enough because they are all taken?

What about one of your kids falling down the stairs and getting a head injury and having to wait hours for an ambulance because they are queuing outside A&E.....

It's not all about people who are already at deaths door, and it's not just about Covid. The NHS is at crisis point BECAUSE of covid but it could affect any single one of us at the moment

what about 30 year old mother Sarah who happens to have diabetes? I guess it's ok for her kids to end up motherless?

In fairness, the data is clear that while Sarah is at more risk than others of her age, the FR for her is very low also.

This disease is clearly and consistently more deadly the older you get.

[quote Unsure33]@SecretSpAD

Someone needs to sort out the nhs trust systems. Where managers are paid way more than the pm and have less accountability.

Guess who bought them in ? Labour .[/quote]
So you want nurses and doctors whose job it is to treat the patients to do the management work as well? Righto.

Or you could just stop reading right wing bollocks and spend a bit of time understanding how the NHS is run and the work that managers do....a few things for starters....

Setting up testing centres for covid
Setting up vaccination centres for covid
Managing the capacity of ICU etc
Managing the pittance of funding that the govt gives them to ensure patient care is funded
Trying to find better, cheaper, ore efficient ways of delivering services
Managing the payroll systems so nurses and doctors get paid
Organising clinics, surgery, A&E capacity
Managing the capacity for diagnostic tests and ensuring that new and better diagnostic tests are implemented for patients to access

I could go on.

@Vintagevixen

Chris Whitty - number one on my (non politician) shit list, beating Vallance to number 2. Closely followed by Neil Ferguson. And every member of SAGE

Why? Because they don’t tell you what you want to hear? Comments like yours are just pathetic.

@TheKeatingFive

what about 30 year old mother Sarah who happens to have diabetes? I guess it's ok for her kids to end up motherless?

In fairness, the data is clear that while Sarah is at more risk than others of her age, the FR for her is very low also.

This disease is clearly and consistently more deadly the older you get.

and again ... hospitals getting overrun isnof zero concern then to you?

I understand the point entirely Im merely pointing out how others might feel.
For example why do people smoke, take drugs, drink alcohol, eat food which kills them, drive like maniacs? They know the risks but think it won't happen to them.
The number of idiots I saw driving at breakneck speed during the first lock down was unreal. Totally reckless driving, why did they do it? They did though.
Perhaps people just see it as white noise now.
Personally I thought there was far too much crap spoken.
Why does Boris and all ministers waffle and waffle and waffle?
Chris Whitty talks sense, no nonsense straight to the point facts.
None of the others do.
Personally I can't bare to hear Van Tam and his projections with illegible graphs saying if this happens then this will be the effect. If this happens then this will be the effect. Look at the colours. Next slide please.
Over to Boris waffle, waffle, waffle.
No wonder nobody is listening.
Talk facts.
Show the implication.
Say it like it is.
Stop plucking dates from thin air staying it will all hopefully be over by: spring, summer, autumn, the 23rd of December, February, when the full moon meets Jupiter on a clear, bright night and the star dust falls from the sky.
Let Chris Whitty speak.

Two recent scenes spring to mind which seem to illustrate a couple of the problems (and I’m not saying that this is a scientific study, just observations):

Mum, dad, two primary age kids and grandma (walking with a stick) coming out of the supermarket with one small bag of shopping which could easily have been carried by one person;

I now do my food shopping in the town centre as I feel it is safer then the scrum which is currently our local supermarket. Walked past two estate agents’ offices. Both had staff sitting at their desks. They were definitely 2m apart but none had masks. Doors were shut. Despite the social distancing presumably they have to use the same toilet facilities, and what complicated computer programmes do estate agents have that they can’t work from computers at home?

MrsFezziwig, rightly or wrongly, at my workplace if we are more than 2m apart (in fairness, it's set up so we're around 4-5m apart anyway) then masks don't need to be worn at the desk (although we mostly do anyway as it's less faff than constantly on/off every time we get up)

Totally agree about the multiple people shopping though. It really should be one adult only (kids not counted as obviously some people have to take them).

@HibernatingTill2030

Totally agree about the multiple people shopping though. It really should be one adult only (kids not counted as obviously some people have to take them).

Agree.

There are so many things that could be made law/ rules and decrease mixing that wouldn't have a detrimental affect and so those things people need can carry on.

I bet if supermarkets made it one adult enters every 2 minutes (until full) and each adult had a trolly it would decrease footfall massively.

Obviously you allow for exemptions.

But even those couples where one doesn't drive or both go on bus could use service. Bet the driver quite happily remains in car or both adults just split the list!

@Onlinedilema

I'm giving you examples. Let's face facts here young, fit people are not in the main dying from covid . It's the elderly and those with underlying conditions.

Setting apart your insulting dismissal of “people with underlying conditions” (so it’s ok for a 30 year old to die if they have an underlying condition which probably wouldn’t have impacted their life in any meaningful way): if a young, fit person contracts Covid and needs hospitalisation, they will still be occupying a bed for a period of time even if they make a full recovery. That’s why it’s better (if you have the option, which I realise many don’t) not to put yourself in the position of catching it in the first place.

I’ve obviously just given up with the mindset that it’s ok just to let elderly people die. Pity I won’t be around to witness when those 30 year olds get to 70 and realise that they are actually still leading productive lives and don’t want to be just written off.

You voted for cuts in public services

I certainly DID NOT vote for this party which makes the government at the moment. A lot of turkeys did vote for Christmas, but I'm not one of them ...

so that a stranger whose family haven't seen them in 10 years can live an extra 6 months

And once again, @Onlinedilema you demonstrate the joyous life-affirming ageism of Mumsnet. It's hideous.

On one hand, I agree that Whitty has every right to discuss the issues with current guidelines being treated as the max people should do rather than the minimum by some people.

On the other, as makingitupaswegoon and others discussed well, many have been in lockdowns for months and many the transmission points are being overlooked with fingers pointed at low hanging fruit, the easy to blame people rather than the systemic lack of support in care homes and many places of employment, and that even if we close everything, those buildings and the water systems and other things will need to be maintained for us to get out of this safely.

Really, at this point, while it may have a few pushing the 'spirit of the guidelines' - I think this will only push those who are already following the guidelines to possibly make risky for them choices - people who won't get support or delay medical treatment because "it isn't essential, it can wait".

I have an appointment in 3 days. I will have to take a taxi to get there, one ward over and about a 5-10 minute drive depending on traffic. I'm half expecting it to be canceled, but since the announcement of lockdown, I've been debating what I 'should' do. It's just a bit of pain,it's not all the time, I can wait a few more months, others need it more than me, it's not worth putting others at risk for this... but that's kinda why I ended up needing an emergency appointment on Christmas Eve, I delayed too long, I took what turned out to be bad advice that it there wasn't any risk in waiting. This can be applied to social situations - that's why there are all these exceptions, people questioning how long and how badly do people need to struggle before it becomes 'essential' & how can we compare those that have been lockdown longer to those that haven't. It's complicated and not as easy as telling people to stay at home.

@QueenoftheAir

so that a stranger whose family haven't seen them in 10 years can live an extra 6 months

And once again, @Onlinedilema you demonstrate the joyous life-affirming ageism of Mumsnet. It's hideous.

Really hideous. And thick.

So many people seem to be unable (or unwilling) to understand the difference between personal risk and public health risk. Yes meeting a friend for exercise/a chat outside is probably fairly low risk (not no risk) on a personal level, but if everyone does it those that are unlucky become a significant source of transmission (and onward transmission beyond that). You can’t manage a pandemic through individual risk assessment. The amount of personal responsibility is concerning, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for saying that @SingANewSongChickenTikka - I wish people would try to understand this.

And for those who insist that the main transmission is in care homes, prisons, hospitals - think about - WHO works in those places, and then goes from their workplace to everywhere else? That is how the virus spreads - as well as in schools, where the lack of COVID security would be illegal in most other workplaces.

Time and again, we are shown by this virus how complex and interconnected we all are. Why won't people understand this?

And it's a government scandal that employees in care homes etc are not being given regular COVID testing. I'm not blaming them.

But in order for lots of people to keep working, and to try to get the schools safe again, ** we ALL need to accept much tougher restrictions in all other aspects of our lives.

The current government is a shower of crap, and ideologically does not care if a lot of us become seriously ill, or die. But that doesn't mean we have to behave like them. Let's be better than our own government.

** Although why the government & the DofE hasn't looked across at Germany, where in some parts they've been doing a rota - a week in school, a week at home, to try to keep kids engaged, but break infection cycles ...

@MrsMiaWallis

Starmer has a mole I am sure so he knows nurseries are next . Handy to announce before the weekly broadcast next week

The fact that he has a mole is obvious surely.

He does not have a mole. Labour is working alongside the Conservative government while this crisis continues and he is vocalising discussions that have happened.

I wish people would stop saying 'I've seen people walking around outside during lockdown' shock horror! People are allowed to go out for walks and they do not need to be masked the whole time while they do this. They may stop and say a few words to a friend while outside - perhaps like me they are a single parent and it's the only time they've spoken to anyone all week.
Stop focussing on how many people there are out walking in the fresh air. You are allowed to go out for exercise. And also, to see them you must be out too so maybe you are being judged in the same way. Focus on the real rule-breakers!

perhaps like me they are a single parent and it's the only time they've spoken to anyone all week

Presumably your children aren't people then ...

Lots of people are actually single & living alone. We deal with it, not use it as an excuse.