Further Restrictions 'Stricter than March' Needed

[Bewareoftheblob]

From the Telegraph today:

Sage advisers are calling for a lockdown tougher than the one seen in March as they argue the current restrictions do not go far enough.

Professor Susan Michie, a health psychology professor at University College London who sits on a Sage subcommittee, said more stringent action was needed.

While around 90 per cent of Britons are sticking to the rules there are also "more people out and about”, Prof Michie told the Today programme.

"It should definitely be tightened,” she said. "This is quite a lax lockdown because we’ve still got a lot of household contact, people go in and out of other’s houses. We should have stricter rather than a less strict lockdown than we had in March.

“You have this wide definition of critical workers and therefore you’ve got really busy public transport. There's also this new variant, and we have the winter season and the virus survives for longer in the cold.”

Link

Do you think they'll follow through with this? Reduce the amount of children in schools, ban support bubbles, heavier policing of people going about their daily lives?

@Bathroom12345

Masks everywhere maybe outside this time. Stop allowing mask exempt people to enter a shop and make special arrangements for them. I bet there aren’t that many of them in the end.

Sorry but by not wearing a mask you are putting everyone around you at risk.

House parties/family get togethers made illegal, parents if required can pay for the fines if it’s a teen. I bet that the parent will then ensure that their wayward teen doesn’t just do what the like.

I know it’s horrible but I am sick of hearing people say they are exempt and they just must do xxx.

Sorry, but this is serious.

Which special requirements do you have in mind?

And what about work, public transport and so on?

I'm sorry you're sick of hearing about people with health conditions which make them exempt. We're sick of being threatened and abused while on our way to work or other essential outing, and attitudes like yours validate those who do so.

@Bathroom12345 I agree with you. Make masks a law and put measures in place to help those who genuinely can’t wear them. Make people accountable.as you say I am sure plenty parents would soon control their teens if they were faced with fines if they didn’t.

@maddiemookins16mum

Do the people who ‘can’t wear masks’ never go out on a really cold day then with a scarf covering their mouth and nose?

I don't. It would trigger a trigeminal neuralgia attack which could leave me unconscious.

I posted earlier in the thread suggesting a total lockdown where only nhs/care/police/fire should have a school/nursery place for 2-3weeks as this would mean more people would be at home and even less children in school. Rightly so people suggested what about teachers, food distribution, etc. Teachers and support staff arguably would be needed less as there would be less children to care for so if they have children under 11 they could work from home. For everything else, I never suggested things should stop as not every worker has a childcare problem or concern. Also for those that do it’s amazing what you can achieve when the option of school/nursery is taken away. The government could help by ensuring employers must be flexible in those 3 weeks.

Other things I’d do in the 2-3weeks-

Reintroduce a strict 2m social distancing rule

Ensure only one person (+carer if required) shops in a supermarket/essential shop. Accompanying children should be discouraged.

All essential shops not selling food can only operate on a click and collect basis

All takeaways/fast food drive thrus to shut

The curriculum paused so no pressure on parents to educate

7pm curfew excluding travel for work and escaping danger

Under 16s not allowed to leave home unless with an adult member of their household/support bubble exceptions being to escape danger, going work or school, shopping for essentials if a carer

Definitely wouldn’t be popular but the virus is out of control. Those that argue the current restrictions may have an affect, yes they may but even scientists are saying it’s unlikely to be enough. If we wait 3weeks to see if the infection is falling and find it’s not working we’ve wasted another 3weeks meaning we’ll be in lockdown longer. By introducing tougher restrictions now (even if the current ones are working) it should get the virus under control quicker and get us out of lockdowns.

Ok. So say masks work. Why not just open everything up then? For mask wearers, obviously, not the pesky exempt people.

They need to sort out the definitions around key worker and school places, 50% of the kids are in our school while the parents work from home and in quite a few cases the stay at home mums have sent them in as they "can't cope" with home-schooling - this is going to extend lockdown and is leaving a crap home-school provision as so many teachers are still needed to teach in person.

I agree re masks, including in school. Make wearing one the social norm, even if it means wearing them outside for now.

A very pertinent post, wanderings. To be clear I'm not among those trying to suggest there's no problem, but I'd hope when all this is over that the dangers of "crying wolf" too often might be remembered

Not with much confidence though ...

It doesn't matter. It won't work. The stricter things get now, the less people comply. Public compliance was ruined from the moment Cummings was let off. So, as a PP says, now the choice is either to lockdown indefinitely, which people will ignore, or just get on with it. This cannot go on much longer, so I suspect people will have to accept the deaths of old people again, sadly.

CKBJ, that all sounds very sensible. I’d make it under 18s though as lost count of the number of posts from parents claiming you can’t stop 16/17 year old children going out and breaking the rules.

I also agree masks should be law including wearing them properly. Lost count of people with them round their necks, not over noses, pulling them down to talk or cough etc.

[quote MerciSeat]@lockeddownandcrazy

Given than 14 million people in the UK live with disabilities and a proportion of them will be exempt, and millions live with health conditions not classed as disabilities but will nevertheless affect ability to wear masks, and hundreds of thousands live with trauma as a result of rape or domestic violence/abuse, your assertion that only 0.1% of the population are exempt seems a little off. I'd be interested to see your source for this figure, can you supply it please? TIA[/quote]
No, what you are saying is that they have a disability or condition that - in their own opinion - impacts on them wearing masks. This is not the same as actually having one.

If they have a medical exemption then this should be provable - exactly the same as if they have a medical exemption for not wearing a seat belt - not a self declared dislike because of some tenuous connection to domestic violence.

But what about the younger people who die? What about the younger people left with permanent health damage ?

These things can be caused by covid, or by lack of hospital treatment for other things if all beds are full of old people dying of covid

We are heading for a something much worse if too many people decide it's not worth it any more, if too many people are too mentally weak to keep going

@Fragileandcomposed

We’re all fucked indefinitely either way. What is happening longer term? We lockdown now. So what? Open back up and it’s back. My nhs nurse friend doesn’t believe the vaccine will work brilliantly having seen people vaccinated before Christmas coming in with covid now. She thinks the only way is to let it be or live in lockdown forever. These are the options imo too. This is it I’m afraid - this is life now. We are talking years, not months, and it makes not much difference as to whether we meet someone for a walk in a park.

I agree. Locking down and stopping the economy in fits and spurts is not working and destroys as many lives as the virus does. No bloody easy answers. We shut down, get it under control, open up, it takes off again. And again. And again. We have no idea if the vaccine will work--the vaccine helps prevent serious illness. We don't know if it will stop us from catching or spreading covid.

That's why all we can do is maintain infection control protocols (mask, handwashing, social distancing) as much as we can. But if people aren't compliant then the State needs to make them.

@CKBJ
Some of that is nonsense. Take-aways are just as essential as food shops so they shouldn't be closed, a curfew is nonsensical and if one is in place should have equal effect on both ends of the day (as in shouldn't favour those who prefer mornings to those who prefer evenings), and teenagers have just as much need for solitary exercise as anyone (if not more as it will be their only chance to escape their parents for a short while) so a complete ban on them leaving the house unaccompanied while allowing adults to exercise would be unfair.

@Doingthingsdifferently your absolutely right. The keyworker list needs to be precise and exact. Numbers in school still need to be reduced. I hear endlessly that people who don’t need are sending children in because the child is sad or lonely. So are many of the other kids who are at home. No one is saying this situation is good for anyone but where is the consideration for the poor children who have lost their parents, the very parents forced out to work to keep the country going. When did us as a society become so entitled.

Also do people realise the nh IS the economy. They aren’t two separate entities.
We’re screwed either way now tbh. Studies show that states that tried to stop the Spanish flu had as many deaths overall as those that didn’t. Just took longer. That’ll be us. Everyone who is going to die from covid will still get it and die from covid. It’ll just take longer and in the meantime the economy tanks and everyone loses the will to live.
I’m in a CEV group and I’d still rather take my chances at this point.

If they have a medical exemption then this should be provable

Who should they have to prove it to? Police only I hope, not some random who decides it's their business.

@midgebabe
That relies on the assumption that old people with Covid should be prioritised over younger people with other conditions which doesn't need to hold. It is time for a complete ban on care home residents with Covid entering hospitals and for other over 80s with it to be redirected to other facilities where necessary for palliative care rather than overwhelming the NHS when there is little chance of survival in any case.

are you in the store for a full 8-9 hour shift?

@Everleigh2021 apologies, I wasn’t implying you were lying, I was just surprised that’s all. Because I really don’t see anyone not wearing one in the shops I’ve been to, so I’m always surprised when I read comments saying that it’s really common.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

If they have a medical exemption then this should be provable

Who should they have to prove it to? Police only I hope, not some random who decides it's their business.

Police, store security etc. It would only need to be an official exemption thing, it wouldn't actually need to say why.

Do the people who ‘can’t wear masks’ never go out on a really cold day then with a scarf covering their mouth and nose?

I can and do wear a mask, but I never do this. I don’t even own a scarf!

@lockeddownandcrazy

If they have a medical exemption then this should be provable - exactly the same as if they have a medical exemption for not wearing a seat belt - not a self declared dislike because of some tenuous connection to domestic violence

What a vile comment. Having been gagged while you're beaten is not a 'tenuous connection to domestic violence'. Not being able to wear a mask on those sorts of grounds is not a 'dislike' of wearing one.

And yes, I am saying that more than 0.1% of the population have a condition which makes them exempt.

I'm still waiting for your source for that figure, by the way. Genuinely interested to see it.

@WouldBeGood

Ok. So say masks work. Why not just open everything up then? For mask wearers, obviously, not the pesky exempt people.

Sorry, WouldBe, I'm not singling you out, I promise. Just answering your question. Masks don't work in isolation of other measures: handwashing, social distancing. They also need to be worn correctly. And the majority of folks need to wear them because masks tend to reduce transmission one-way (towards non-maskwearer/recipient) rather than protecting the wearer. Hope this makes sense.

@CKBJ

I posted this on another thread:

I think schools including nurseries should only offer places for NHS/Care/Police/Fire staff for the next 2-3weeks. As this would stop many people with children from working it would become a very harsh lockdown for 2-3weeks and therefore disrupt the covid transmission. Yes work places will suffer, including those that are critical, however with the way numbers are increasing it calls for drastic action. This should be known as Total Lockdown,we then revert back to the current lockdown and as soon as possible (End Feb/Mar) move the country back down the tier system.

You would have to include utility workers. If you don't the power will go off and there will be no water or sewage treatment. We really would be up the creek without a paddle'

Also food distribution?

@Fragileandcomposed

Also do people realise the nh IS the economy. They aren’t two separate entities. We’re screwed either way now tbh. Studies show that states that tried to stop the Spanish flu had as many deaths overall as those that didn’t. Just took longer. That’ll be us. Everyone who is going to die from covid will still get it and die from covid. It’ll just take longer and in the meantime the economy tanks and everyone loses the will to live. I’m in a CEV group and I’d still rather take my chances at this point.

The availability of a vaccine changes things significantly and there is an advantage to flattening your curve and prolonging transmission because it allows time for vaccine development and deployment