Two Women fined for walking for Starbucks

[Superketchup]

What rule have they broken? I don’t understand. Two of them met - yes can meet one other person - they’d driven 5 miles - surely that’s ok?! - and they had a Starbucks each which the police said was a picnic?!
Why are they keeping takeaways open if it’s agaisnt the law to get one? I took my kids to the park, the coffee shop was open for takeaway. It was freezing. We got a hot chocolate each. I’m too scared to do so again!

They haven't broken any law. In fact a barrister has given an opinion on it and the police are not just slightly wrong, they are massively wrong. Many people drive a few miles to places less crowded...I do as the main walks around us are rammed.

Unfortunately the police are sometimes getting confused between guidance and law. Derbyshire police (who were found using drones to spy on walkers) have once again got it massively wrong and even the home office and college of policing declined to comment on their interpretation (Euphemism for saying they are utterly wrong)

What is worth noting is that over 90% of these fines are being overturned due to the CPS having to review them due to the concerns about the police making up law in this matter.

Where is live, one force has mounted boarder patrols telling people they shouldn't be travelling over the boarder....this is even for people who live 100 m the other side of the boundary and the shops are down the road but across the boundary. Again utterly unlawful but they are mounting road checks, stopping people and handing them typed notices

Oh and getting a coffee isn't a picnic

@QueenoftheAir

If you can post on MN, you can look up the GOV.UK site and read the regulations for yourself. But just to help you:

What rule have they broken? I don’t understand.
www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

they’d driven 5 miles - surely that’s ok?!

From the GOV.UK site:
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are part of your household or support bubble. You cannot leave home for recreational or leisure purposes (such as for a picnic or a social meeting)

and they had a Starbucks each which the police said was a picnic?!

You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

No wonder our hospitals are now unable to cope, and people with serious medical needs other than COVID treatment are now being delayed or cancelled.

that's how I understand it too.

I disagree that the Starbucks is a 'picnic' - if they'd had a coffee and a sandwich/whatever Starbucks sells that passes as food - then that'd be a picnic

Oh no! My support bubble lives 5 miles from me. We both have a park near our houses but there is also another one pretty much central to us both. Is it:
a) I drive 5 miles to her to walk in her park
b) She drives 5 miles to me to meet in my park
c) We meet in the middle doing 2.5 miles each
Option C obviously means two cars on the road which according to mumsnet we are bound to crash or break down and need assistance.

We will also buy coffee wherever we go!

if that's what consists of a picnic, i better grass up two coppers who were sat in their car, maskless having a brew outside greggs at lunchtime. We aren't in Derbyshire so perhaps they are a bit more nomal round here.

"Exercise" is permitted, but you should not travel to do so.

You've misquoted your own link, @QueenoftheAir. The guidance crucially says you should not travel outside your local area, it doesn't say you should not travel. Five miles is certainly local.

@QueenoftheAir

You have quoted guidance, not law. The relevant legislation can be found here: www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents

Schedule 3A contains the tier 4 restrictions.

Exceptions: leaving home
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(a)to buy goods or obtain services from any business or service listed in [F3paragraph 17], ...

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

By law, you are allowed to meet with one friend for exercise and there is no restriction on the distance you are allowed to travel.

@CaptainMyCaptain I was hoping to do it on the weekend, now I’m going to be paranoid we might get into trouble but there’s literally nothing around us as we live very rurally and it’s just not safe to have the children cycling outside on the road as it connects to 60mph main road and obviously no one ever wants to slow down properly when they drive through the village 😰

Am listening to TalkRadio and someone just called in saying about getting a fine for having a flask of tea on them when out walking (they had been out for about 2 hours). Utter utter madness.

@QueenoftheAir

Apparently the police are saying five miles was not in the spirit of lockdown.

And given what I've quoted direct from the Government guidance, the police are correct.

"Exercise" is permitted, but you should not travel to do so. It's exercise not "exercise in a pretty spot*.

Those of us living in the middle of cities will either have to take long walks, or start to appreciate our immediate surroundings.

Only travelling 5 miles is local. You might be okay hiding away in your house, but a lot of people rely on outdoor walks for the sake of their mental and physical health. They travelled to a quiet location, which is a hell of a lot safer than wondering around a supermarket. They didn’t go to a rave.

@Iheartmysmart

Oh no! My support bubble lives 5 miles from me. We both have a park near our houses but there is also another one pretty much central to us both. Is it: a) I drive 5 miles to her to walk in her park b) She drives 5 miles to me to meet in my park c) We meet in the middle doing 2.5 miles each Option C obviously means two cars on the road which according to mumsnet we are bound to crash or break down and need assistance.

We will also buy coffee wherever we go!

There is no geographical distance for support bubbles.

Inconsistently, you can meet up INSIDE the house of your support bubble, but if you want to stay safe and meet OUTSIDE you risk incurring a £200 fine apparently.

badpuma is right. You can go outside to exercise.

There remains, as last year, a difference between the law and non binding guidance from the state, never mind how police interpret it.

The sooner we get rid of these laws the better.

The thing is people often take a bottle of water out when walking or running. Are they stopping to sample what people are carrying? It’s getting ridiculous. Either a walk for exercise is ok a s if you have a drink in your hand then that shouldn’t matter. In fact my morning coffee on my dog walk is what I look forward to.

Also driving 5 miles to somewhere isolated is arguably safer than walking straight from your house into a vast mass of people on their daily walk. Nowhere that I go currently are there as many people as walking up and down our private road - all ignoring the signs and trespassing.

Utterly ridiculous. A warm drink is not a picnic.

I can't actually believe we are even having this conversation

Some people saying five miles is not local don't understand how far people need to travel just for essentials...our nearest proper supermarket is five miles away and we're not even super rural.

Sometimes it is safer to drive to exercise, if exercise would otherwise be in a busy area, or if exercising from home involves walking along the side of fast roads with no pavements.

This would be difficult to enforce and would certainly be worth arguing.
People can argue that the law isn't well thought-out or well written - and that would be true - but to be fair many many laws are based on concepts of such as reasonableness, which are not black and white. That is one of the reasons why we don't tend to use statutory liability for criminal offences.

It’s shocking isn’t it?!

Can’t stop and sit on a bench during a walk, fined for walking with coffee or a flask of tea.

Yet when my abusive ex was trying to kick down my door and I called the police they were ‘too busy’.

Some people saying five miles is not local don't understand how far people need to travel just for essentials...our nearest proper supermarket is five miles away and we're not even super rural

That might matter if the conversation was about going for essential shopping, but it isn't.

You can exercise with another person, so I guess you'd get away with a long or strenuous walk but buying a coffee turns it into a more social occasion - maybe that's the tipping point.

@fluufy

Some people saying five miles is not local don't understand how far people need to travel just for essentials...our nearest proper supermarket is five miles away and we're not even super rural

That might matter if the conversation was about going for essential shopping, but it isn't.

Shopping and exercise have the same weighting in the guidelines and are listed in the same sections equally.

They shouldn't be travelling in the same car if they are from different households. It wasn't a necessary journey.

Thanks @benedicto We tend to meet outside most days for a walk otherwise we are both sat inside in front of a laptop for 9 hours during the week. Madness that we can go in each other’s houses but risk a fine outside!

I quite often take a hip flask full of port with me on my afternoon dog walk if I don’t have to drive later. No bugger is taking that off me.

@QueenoftheAir nice bit of selective quoting there.

The same website also states you may leave home to exercise, and that if you're alone, you may do so with one other person outside of your bubble/household.

Also, as Starbucks is allowed to open as a takeaway service, and you're also allowed to leave home to purchase food/drink from a takeaway establishment.

Again, the two women did nothing wrong. You are allowed to travel for exercise. You're allowed (if alone) to meet one other person, and you're allowed to get takeaway.