Two Women fined for walking for Starbucks

[Superketchup]

What rule have they broken? I don’t understand. Two of them met - yes can meet one other person - they’d driven 5 miles - surely that’s ok?! - and they had a Starbucks each which the police said was a picnic?!
Why are they keeping takeaways open if it’s agaisnt the law to get one? I took my kids to the park, the coffee shop was open for takeaway. It was freezing. We got a hot chocolate each. I’m too scared to do so again!

@vanillandhoney
Shit, sorry about that :o

@fluufy

am very clear on what the law currently states I can and can't do, and I will follow the law as I am a law abiding citizen. The law is definitely not about "nuance and grey areas" as I'm sure many a high court judge will tell you. And who are you to judge whether something is or isn't helpful? The government have set the law, having listened to the advice of many, many scientists. If something is "technically allowed" it is allowed. End of

This is exaclty why we are in this mess. This attitude of "If its not actually illegal I'll do whatever I want. Guidelines are not law so I'll ignore all of them and only stick to the things I'll be fined for if I don't".

Well done, so proud.

Not sure how you have managed to decide that is what I'm saying LOL. (and yes I do follow guidelines. I also understand how viruses spread and can make rational decisions about risk!) In my view this actually didn't even breach any guidelines, but that is not the point of the thread is it. The point is you can't be fined by the police for doing something that is not illegal. The law is there for a reason. We do not live in a police state and nor do I want to.

And actually, unlike almost the whole of the rest of MN it seems, I haven't forgotten that there are actually other things that matter as well as COVID. People's mental health matters. A lot. And just because my mental health may be fine, and I may be able to cope with all the restrictions whilst eating dry bread and water, I am aware that other people may be struggling. But then you know, when you have spent a year admitting people to mental health wards, sectioning people and talking to the devastated relatives of patients that have committed suicide then I guess you have a better chance of seeing the bigger picture.

And thanks, yes I am very proud. I have worked tirelessly in my NHS job for months. Long, long hours, extremely difficult circumstances. I am now also additionally assisting with COVID vaccinations for my trust. So yep. I am justifiably proud.
And you? Proud of judging others and trying to appear superior?

I mean; aren’t they saying to avoid travel when necessary?

They were travelling for work or exercise but to get a fat free double shot mocha with extra cream.

@TerrifiedOfTrying4No2

I mean; aren’t they saying to avoid travel when necessary?

They were travelling for work or exercise but to get a fat free double shot mocha with extra cream.

If the mocha is illegal the the government need to shut the cafes, which they have not done. It is legal to sell (and presumably purchase) takeaways from cafes.

This is pathetic. I met a friend with our toddlers this morning. We both got a pret and walked (didn’t stop) then took the children to the park. Is this criminal? There were police in our town but nobody was stopped and there were plenty of people sat on benches talking.

It's absolutely outrageous what happened to them. I am a huge rule follower, but this is terrifying.

@TerrifiedOfTrying4No2

I mean; aren’t they saying to avoid travel when necessary?

They were travelling for work or exercise but to get a fat free double shot mocha with extra cream.

They were walking round a reservoir as I did yesterday, a different reservoir but in Derbyshire and no coffee. Just the other side of town, probably a similar distance. It was exercise.

"If the mocha is illegal the the government need to shut the cafes, which they have not done. It is legal to sell (and presumably purchase) takeaways from cafes."

Exactly, if the cafe is open for takeaways, you're allowed to go to it!

I live in the middle of nowhere, my nearest park is 5 miles away along with my nearest supermarket, costa, etc
I’m sticking to walking around our incredibly tiny “village” no shops just a few houses scattered around with a road running through it.
Would I be unreasonable to want to take my children to the park 5 miles away so they could cycle safely or scooter for a bit? Walk the dog in a nice field instead of the road? (We have no pavements here either).

@CleverCatty

you are correct

if this guidance was put into law in the UK

People would be up in arms .

A high percentage of people do not like being told what to do .

Yes the police were wrong as they did not break the law.

Would I have done what they did? - personally no .

If you can post on MN, you can look up the GOV.UK site and read the regulations for yourself. But just to help you:

What rule have they broken? I don’t understand.
www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

they’d driven 5 miles - surely that’s ok?!

From the GOV.UK site:
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are part of your household or support bubble. You cannot leave home for recreational or leisure purposes (such as for a picnic or a social meeting)

and they had a Starbucks each which the police said was a picnic?!

You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

No wonder our hospitals are now unable to cope, and people with serious medical needs other than COVID treatment are now being delayed or cancelled.

"We've just heard via a family friend that the police will be closing the car parks for all beauty spots over the next few days to discourage people driving to meet up and ending up with crowds all in the same places."

Then people will park on the roads and end up blocking them. Closing car parks is stupid. You are better off 'enforcing' stupid road parking. Lots of beauty spots are not public land and it is up to the land owner what they do.

But you are living in Germany - we're in the UK where it's hard if not nigh on impossible to enforce the laws as then people start bleating about it being 'unfair'.
I am in the part of Germany which has the highest proportion of QAnon anti-maskers in the country, and where people first started protesting against the lockdown. This weekend, some local retailers are planning to open their shops in defiance of the law. Germans are not all massive fans of the law, especially here in the east, where people suffered for years under a repressive Communist state. But if they want to abide by the law, it is pretty clear.

@TerrifiedOfTrying4No2

I mean; aren’t they saying to avoid travel when necessary?

They were travelling for work or exercise but to get a fat free double shot mocha with extra cream.

Driving a short distance to a park is not would I would call "travel".

@EmpressSuiko

I live in the middle of nowhere, my nearest park is 5 miles away along with my nearest supermarket, costa, etc I’m sticking to walking around our incredibly tiny “village” no shops just a few houses scattered around with a road running through it. Would I be unreasonable to want to take my children to the park 5 miles away so they could cycle safely or scooter for a bit? Walk the dog in a nice field instead of the road? (We have no pavements here either).

I think that would be perfectly reasonable.

Derbyshire police are really going for covid busters of the year award. The other day they fined two friends who drove in the same car to a nearby town for a wander (although probably justified on that one). Also currently handing out lots of fines at local beauty spots if you don't live in the same county.

Apparently the police are saying five miles was not in the spirit of lockdown.

And given what I've quoted direct from the Government guidance, the police are correct.

"Exercise" is permitted, but you should not travel to do so. It's exercise not "exercise in a pretty spot*.

Those of us living in the middle of cities will either have to take long walks, or start to appreciate our immediate surroundings.

@QueenoftheAir

If you can post on MN, you can look up the GOV.UK site and read the regulations for yourself. But just to help you:

What rule have they broken? I don’t understand.
www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

they’d driven 5 miles - surely that’s ok?!

From the GOV.UK site:
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are part of your household or support bubble. You cannot leave home for recreational or leisure purposes (such as for a picnic or a social meeting)

and they had a Starbucks each which the police said was a picnic?!

You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

No wonder our hospitals are now unable to cope, and people with serious medical needs other than COVID treatment are now being delayed or cancelled.

You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

You can exercise in a public outdoor place:

by yourself
with the people you live with
with your support bubble (if you are legally permitted to form one)
in a childcare bubble where providing childcare
or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household
This includes but is not limited to running, cycling, walking, and swimming.

so walking with one other person is fine and 5 miles i would say is local. if you could walk it reasonably, it's local.

I’m from this area and it is not the same as the Peak District at all with lots of people coming from large cities Sheffield,Manchester etc. It’s very average countryside without lots of visitors and Ashby is a small town without chain shops close-ish to the reservoir they went to. It would be tricky to drive anywhere from Ashby without going into Nottinghamshire or Derbyshire.

Exercise is permitted, but you should not travel to do so
Where does it say this? You really need to provide evidence for this as you are the only person on a long thread to have found this wording of the law.

I thought it just said 'local' and did not specify that you could not drive to do the exercise.

Derbyshire police have got a bit of a track record for over-zealous policing of the lockdown rules. Given that they clearly have spare capacity, it sounds as if the time is right for their officers to be redeployed to somewhere where they can do something useful.

Last time around, an awful lot of these fines got overturned by the courts. I suspect that that is what will happen in this case.

They shouldn't be arresting people for not being in the "spirit of lockdown". They shoud only arrest people who have broken actual rules/ laws, which these women hadn't.

I read this article earlier. It’s not illegal to buy takeaway, including coffee. It’s not illegal to go for a walk. It’s safer to go for a walk in a quiet area (they only travelled 5 miles) than stay in a busy built up area. Walking and fresh air in nature is brilliant for improving mental and physical health.

They didn’t go to a rave. They didn’t do anything illegal and I hope they don’t pay the fine.

I drove ten minutes to Costa this morning to get takeaway coffee for me and DH. If I had been stopped by the police what would their justification have been if takeaways are open for business? I’m also a bit scared to do it again.

it does just say local, it does not say you cannot drive to exercise anywhere on that page. I have just read it. The issue is the definition of local. In my mind, 5 miles is local.