Things go wrong in other countries, too

[avenueq]

I don't think it's helpful how irate people get about the UK government's failings. Yes there are plenty but this is a whole new situation and there are plenty of other countries making mistakes.
Before you ask - I'm not from the UK, but that means I have insight what happens elsewhere,
So to start -
The Eu has been slow in vaccine acquisition

In Austria, vaccinations could not start yet in some areas as not enogh needles (!) had been ordered

Countries with the most severe lockdown did not necessarily solve the Problem (Spain)

Countries who had supposedly excellent track and trace also had a second wave (Germany)

Anyone got other examples?

No, it really is the laughing stock of the world.

Proof. Multiple reports where people are "laughing" at us please. It's just nonsense. No one is laughing. Surprise, incomprehension, concern, questioning yes, but laughter would mean they're pretty thick themselves and would mean nothing to me.

And I'll need that proof from multiple countries to back up your assertion that the entire world is laughing at the U.K.

Agree with pps about Italy. How many times have I read on MN about how Italians love children and are happy to let them run around restaurants. Like hell they’re happy. They are often appalled at British kids’ behaviour. Not that Italian kids are angels but they would never get down in a restaurant and bother people.

And yes, northern Italians would sooner give you a rude sign than a smile.

And as for racism and disablism - the things normal Italians say would make MNetters’ hair stand on end. I’m not very woke but I cringe at the sort of stuff people there come out with.

As I posted earlier, the first vaccinated person in Italy was, coincidentally of course, glamorous

@sashagabadon

I think the main answer to east Asia’s success is in the article though. They had experienced it before and knew what to do. We in Europe / the west didn’t because we hadn’t. We’ll be better prepared next time I have no doubt. Novaro are pretty lefty too, they wanted to refund the police in the summer! So not sure how the U.K. could become a surveillance state with no police ( even if we wanted to, which we don’t)

East Asian societies are fundamentally different from European societies. They are run according to Confucian values, with very different attitudes towards social conformity, questioning of authority and government surveillance. While you could argue that such attitudes are helpful in time of crisis, they can't be imposed on a very different society overnight. Nor should they be.

@HmmSureJan

And I'll need that proof from multiple countries to back up your assertion that the entire world is laughing at the U.K.

We don't, but you appear a tiny bit self-absorbed thinking we give you that much thought. What kind of people do you think we are, laughing at other's misery? Is that what you do?

I can understand disbelief, horror at a foreign government's actions. I don't see the UK government missteps as grossly worse than other countries. All government's without totalitarian regimes have struggled to balance competing needs between public health economy and freedom. And believe me I was calling for lockdown in February.

I'm more circumspect now.

Japan's death rate has been low with evidence of a lot of transmission after light restrictions. Every country will have its own story to tell when this is over.

Sorry @HmmSureJan not you, mn brits saying they are laughing stock .

@IrmaFayLear

Agree with pps about Italy. How many times have I read on MN about how Italians love children and are happy to let them run around restaurants. Like hell they’re happy. They are often appalled at British kids’ behaviour. Not that Italian kids are angels but they would never get down in a restaurant and bother people.

And yes, northern Italians would sooner give you a rude sign than a smile.

And as for racism and disablism - the things normal Italians say would make MNetters’ hair stand on end. I’m not very woke but I cringe at the sort of stuff people there come out with.

As I posted earlier, the first vaccinated person in Italy was, coincidentally of course, glamorous

Agree with all this. I found Italy to be quite a selfish, cynical society, and many Italians feel the same way. It's also a low-trust society, and people, especially in the North, tend to be suspicious and wary of people by default. Not at all the cliche of friendly, open Italians. And don't get me started on the rudeness of those working in public "services", which is on the level of Eastern Europe in the Communist era!

But I guess we are getting off topic!

We don't, but you appear a tiny bit self-absorbed thinking we give you that much thought. What kind of people do you think we are, laughing at other's misery? Is that what you do?

I think you are misunderstanding. I know no one is laughing at us. I know people from other countries are primarily occupied with their own country's issues, failings, successes etc. I am responding to posters who assert that the U.K. is "the laughing stock of the world". I am agreeing with you.

God, the public services!

I got lost on the train network a couple of years ago, and asked in a ticket booth for advice on the best way to get to my destination - in Italian I hasten to add. The guy shrugged, told me to fuck off and swung his seat around !

Regarding vaccines - I understand in some places you will have to go and look at a list posted in the town to see if your name has come up. Can you imagine that happening here?!

East Asian societies are fundamentally different from European societies. They are run according to Confucian values, with very different attitudes towards social conformity, questioning of authority and government surveillance.

Yes Thailand that well known Confucian culture

Asia is not China, what an ignorant comment.

I know we agree @HmmSureJan posted again to say not you, but the laughing stock posters .

Yes Thailand that well known Confucian culture

Thailand isn't one of the countries usually mentioned as having dealt exceptionally well with the pandemic, so is irrelevant here.

Asia is not China, what an ignorant comment.

What's ignorant is to be unaware of the massive influence Chinese culture - including Confucianism - has had on the societies of East Asia over the centuries.

@giantangryrooster

I know we agree *@HmmSureJan* posted again to say not you, but the laughing stock posters .

Apologies

I just had to Google the glamorous Italian lady who received the 1st vaccine there.

It seems she is a 29 year old Nurse who works at an infectious diseases hospital/clinic.

I suspect, though obviously don't know, that it is her job rather than her looks that got her to the front of the queue😁.
Eminently sensible decision IMHO.

OP, Whether your yardstick is deaths or the economy the U.K. government has measurably created a worse outcome than at least 180 of those other countries

The UK has one of worst death tolls combined with taking one of the worst economic hits.

A year into covid the U.K. government still doesn't have a test and trace system worth the name.

A year into covid the U.K. government still hasn't bothered to make schools safe.

Around 3000 people have been dying of covid every week for months so it's clear the cases commensurate with that were not being detected.

The U.K. government opened up after the lockdown despite this. They took areas into lower tiers despite this, they told people they could mix for five days at Christmas despite this...

Where we are now. They did this.

"It's a new situation, other countries make mistakes too" just doesn't wash when the governments of so many other countries are dealing with this vastly better than the government of the U.K.

It's hard to imagine that anyone could do worse than our current government given that it has better resources at its disposal than 189 of the countries on earth.

But about 8 countries have done worse. And 184 have done better. Most of them with far fewer resources at their disposal.

Many of them were posting nonstop on the Brexit board - then when Brexit took a backseat to Covid, those usernames immediately began popping up on the coronavirus board. I’ve always wondered how they have the time to post so frequently but now I know they’re professionals, that explains it!

As opposed to brexitiers who posted non stop on Brexit, name changed then post non stop on whataboutery threads to support their brexit hero Johnson........?

Its quite sad that so many take delight in europe's problems with rolling out vaccine, a non vaccinated europe will not make our lives much easier.

@PrincessNutNuts

OP, Whether your yardstick is deaths or the economy the U.K. government has measurably created a worse outcome than at least 180 of those other countries

The UK has one of worst death tolls combined with taking one of the worst economic hits.

A year into covid the U.K. government still doesn't have a test and trace system worth the name.

A year into covid the U.K. government still hasn't bothered to make schools safe.

Around 3000 people have been dying of covid every week for months so it's clear the cases commensurate with that were not being detected.

The U.K. government opened up after the lockdown despite this. They took areas into lower tiers despite this, they told people they could mix for five days at Christmas despite this...

Where we are now. They did this.

"It's a new situation, other countries make mistakes too" just doesn't wash when the governments of so many other countries are dealing with this vastly better than the government of the U.K.

No one will be able to say whether any of your assertions are true for some years. As I've said before, different countries are counting different things in different ways and the data that results may tell a different picture. Here in the UK we register those people who died with Covid 19 on their death certificate and also those people who died within 28 days of having a positive test result and there's currently a 6,000+ difference between the two figures. It's sometimes not clear what criteria other countries are using, so we're comparing apples and pears a lot of the time.

In my own extended family we had a relative who had been diagnosed with terminal cancer before Covid struck and had to be admitted to hospital when she degenerated in the week before she died. In the hospital she caught Covid. But she was already dying when she was admitted. She is apparently registered as a Covid death. It will only be in a year or two, when people can look at excess death figures, that we'll have a clear idea of the real numbers. We're good and relatively reliable with our record-keeping. Many countries aren't. North Korea hasn't had a single case of Covid 19 apparently, which makes it the best country in the world to live in at the moment.

There are reasons why the test and trace system becomes less efficient the larger the number of people using it and Germany and other countries have experienced the same phenomenon. The bigger it gets, the more people who are using it, the more complicated it is to trace and inform everyone.

I'm a leftie and no supporter of the Tories, but I cringe when I see people hitting out wildly, making sweeping and uninformed generalisations, because of party politics. The situation is a lot more complicated and nuanced than you pretend and the more this knocking goes on, the more it drives Labour voters like me to question what Labour's become and whether, when this is all over, I want to support the gloom-merchants and 'this-country's-crap' brigade who appear to want the impossible.

Dr Michael Ryan, WHO, 30 plus years of being a leader in fighting serious pandemics and infectious said go hard, go fast, go early in containing COVID. Countries who did this have had better outcomes. Can only hope should/when another pandemic arises more governments - mainly US and European govts - have learnt from their mistakes by not doing so during this pandemic.

twitter.com/conallmcd/status/1238865202868883461?s=21

I'm not sure killing more of your citizens per capita than almost anyone else* really compares to a temporary needle shortage in Austria.

*The U.K. has been in the top 13 for deaths per capita throughout.

@Shedbuilder

I judge on measurable results here and now. Not in a hypothetical future.

Around 3000 people have died in the U.K. every week for the last 9 weeks no matter which measure you use.
^
The U.K. government did relax restrictions when deaths were at around 3000 a week.

The U.K. has more deaths per capita than almost all the other other countries. ^

Brits are very insecure about their position in league tables, aren't they?

"Sick man of Europe"
"Laughing stock of the world"
etc.

Weird. What is with you people?

1 January-31 March = 39 weeks, but call it 40 weeks to make math easy. 40 x 3000 = 120,000. I don't think anyone credible is saying UK has had 120k deaths from covid so far.

I judge on measurable results here and now. Not in a hypothetical^ future.

Don't know what's hypothetical about the future, but thank you — you've confirmed everything I needed to know.

You're right in a sense. Trying to "fight" a virus as if it were a war is bound to be hard.
However, our government, and in particular our prime minister, have form for laziness, venality and ineptitude which would make it difficult to be supportive of them at the best of times.