AIBU to stand up for children and parents...

[alwaysraining123]

... and say that closing schools is not an option. Some observations.

(1) millions of children will suffer poorer mental health, educational deficits and be at risk of physical harm.
(2) if schools close now the government will struggle to get them back open.
(3) the unions are playing a highly political game preying shamelessly on people’s fears.
(4) online learning is of no use for most of the primary school years. Parents basically need to be available all day to support children.
(5) more parents are going to find themselves unable to work causing more financial hardship. This won’t affect your middle class sahps or people who can work from home as much- there are people who actually have to go out of their house to earn a living.
(6) if you’re parent and you’re worried you can keep your child at home.
(7) educational transmission of the virus is low and infection control standards can be escalated where needed.

Whatever is done we need to place maintaining educational provision for children at the heart of it. We need to make it work...there’s no other option.

If they wish to, I absolutely think teachers should wear PPE (as an active PTA member I would be happy to suggest PTA funds go towards this). I really don't understand the furore why not

Many if not most teachers would prefer to wear face coverings in the classroom, and would prefer it if pupils also did so. But the DfE explicitly discourages this.

Face coverings can have a negative impact on learning and teaching and so their use in the classroom should be avoided.

There is no evidence given to support this statement.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-in-education/face-coverings-in-education

@borntobequiet of course face coverings will have a negative impact on teaching . Some pupils will have low level hearing issues, some will get a lot from the teachers expressions. In languages for example it's pretty key to see how you pronounce and form words.

That doesn't mean teachers shouldn't wear masks. I'd be very happy for them and pupils to do so in current conditions, but let's not pretend that it doesn't change things in the classroom.

I agree with Newyear and think the unions have been dreadful right back from May when they actively refused to engage with the government and told teachers not to teach kids.

This isn't true. The government refused and continues to refuse to engage with unions and it was the government who suspended the curriculum.

YABU Teachers can’t be expected to sacrifice their own rights to safety and protection for you and your children. What are you suggesting should be done then to make schools safe? Or do you just think things should carry on as they are and education staff just have to “put up with it”??

@borntobequiet of course face coverings will have a negative impact on teaching

I didn’t say they wouldn’t, only that no evidence was given to support the statement. What I said was that the DfE explicitly discourages their use.
In situations where they might have negative effect, alternatives could be found. Just because they might affect teaching and learning for some doesn’t mean they should be avoided generally.

@MissMissICantDoThis
I'm glad what I said resonated with someone, though really don't want to panic you or be alarmist. I personally spent many hours going through applications of those from state schools (who often submitted timed essays from the first TERM of sixth form instead of glossy projects where the teacher involvement was palpable), and all admissions tutors I know have been doing their absolute best to recognise the increase in educational inequality. I do sadly think there was an effect on our offers this year, but anyone who gets an offer (from us, anyway) really shouldn't worry about A-levels too much. I know one college is already planning to make unconditional offers in these circumstances (not sure if just to state school applicants or to everyone).

Not getting into Oxbridge or not going to university at all sound like first world problems compared to dying of Covid on a crowded understaffed ward. On the other hand, I personally am fantastically grateful for my education at Oxbridge and the opportunities it brought, and would rather, in my own case, choose to have those opportunities and forswear my right to emergency NHS care past a certain age (for me it would probably be 75/80, but no one in my family has ever lived that that age without serious health problems or dementia). Other views??

In other words, is it fair to give complex medical care to very elderly patients IF it comes at the cost of millions of children losing a year or more of education (which older people in society benefited from at the same age)? If we make that choice, which has many humane reasons for it, then I feel strongly that there should be a levy on better-off older people who own property to 'pay back' the children and young adults who have sacrificed so much for them. The complex moral issue for me is that they haven't in the case of under 18s made this choice voluntarily (as soldiers do, even if conscripted) or with full knowledge. We are making the choice on their behalf.

@hopsalong very interesting post. So much of what we choose do to now - including vaccination priority- is a choice between young and old, and I doubt that when I'm over 70 and definitely when DS is, that a free at point of service NHS will exist nor a state pension. I don't know what the answer is other than increase inheritance tax or start charging for some medical procedures.

@christinarossetti19

I agree with Newyear and think the unions have been dreadful right back from May when they actively refused to engage with the government and told teachers not to teach kids.

This isn't true. The government refused and continues to refuse to engage with unions and it was the government who suspended the curriculum.

Governments of all colours have disengaged with teaching unions for decades now. A significant reason for this is the antagonistic behaviour of the unions which promote a minority political agenda. This strategy hasn’t worked in terms of influencing the wider public or the electorate. The profession has suffered as a result. This cannot be blamed on a hostile press anymore because no one reads papers anymore.

For a right wing government like this one teaching unions are just a gift that keeps on giving.

@Newyearsamecovid

Masks are worn mainly to keep others safe they do very little in terms of your own safety. So what we are saying is the children would need to wear masks...not sure about anyone else but I'm really uncomfortable with that That’s not correct, N95s in particular protect the wearer. Covid patients in hospital are certainly not keeping their masks on at all times. Neither are bus passengers, supermarket shoppers, prisoners etc.

This is a ridiculous argument as these masks are only available to staff working in critical care.

I clearly remember listening to a female representative of a teaching union one morning back in May as I got up to get the tube into work myself saying that she would advise teachers not to engage with their own senior leadership teams and head teachers on how to get children back to school. At that moment any support I had for the teaching unions evaporated in a puff of smoke. To actively encourage working against the government is disgraceful. It really really is. I was a school governor for years. I understand how hard teachers work but to actively work against children returning to schools is unforgivable imo.

"Governments of all colours have disengaged with teaching unions for decades now. A significant reason for this is the antagonistic behaviour of the unions which promote a minority political agenda."

Yes, decent wages and safe working conditions are a minority political agenda these days @LemonTT

Shocking, isn't it?

I completely agree with you OP. You are definitely speaking for a huge number of parents who feel our children are getting a really poor deal.

I am getting fed up of people asking to be furloughed! And consider it an entitlement. It is a privilege that does not exist in many countries and I am fed up of teachers to be honest. Never had a problem before all this escalated. The risk for young children and ft, healthy teachers is minimal.

I absolutely agree the Unions are behaving in a very manipulative way!

@LadyPenelope68

YABU Teachers can’t be expected to sacrifice their own rights to safety and protection for you and your children. What are you suggesting should be done then to make schools safe? Or do you just think things should carry on as they are and education staff just have to “put up with it”??

This. I'm so sick and tired of children's needs trumping everyone else's. We are going to raise a nation of indulged little tyrants if we're not a bit more careful about the 'children are the centre of the universe' narrative.

@Dogsandbabies

I completely agree with you OP. You are definitely speaking for a huge number of parents who feel our children are getting a really poor deal.

I am getting fed up of people asking to be furloughed! And consider it an entitlement. It is a privilege that does not exist in many countries and I am fed up of teachers to be honest. Never had a problem before all this escalated. The risk for young children and ft, healthy teachers is minimal.

Don't tell me, you run a business and you're shocked that people think their health is more important than keeping turning out your unicorn dressage kits?

Also, being fit is no defence against covid in many cases

Being a child doesn't stop you passing on the virus - especially with the new variant

Dogsandbabies
Yes, the risk to fit healthy teachers might be minimal. But how many staff (not just teachers) fit into that category?
In my school, there are 17 staff members, including lunchtime supervisors and our cleaner.
Of those, 7 fall into the more at risk category due to underlying conditions of their own, and 4 more have vulnerable relatives at home.
Even take the seven who are directly at risk out, and we struggle to function as a school.

@babybythesea your story is anecdotal. My DDs school is mostly staffed by NQTs that are fit and healthy. I was all in favour of the government's initial approach to allow shielding for people who are deemed more vulnerable than the rest of us.

I am young, fit and healthy and I go to my job every day. I am seconded from DH at a big London hospital so I take a risk in order to feed my family, keep the economy running and hopefully find a way out of this mess.

@DameFanny if it makes you feel better. I am Donald Trump. I actually work in a hospital at the moment on a secondment. I am pregnant but otherwise for and healthy. I am allowed to not want my kids to pay for furloughed employees for their whole lives. Or want them to get a good education.

Do you even understand that Covid is usually a mild disease for most? All this effort is to protect the vulnerable and to ensure that health services remain functioning. But there is a very fine line where I feel this is excessive and I also want to protect my children's mental health, education and general well-being.

@BatteredHake

Personally if schools close due to teachers refusing to attend work, I'd place the lot of them onto £70 a week universal credit.

If anyone else fails to attend work, they lose their job (which may well happen now for childcare reasons).

Teachers have been on full pay throughout this crisis despite many by some accounts doing very little for 6 months.

There are laws to protect those who can’t work due to a section 44 Health and Safety breach.

‘Some accounts’ - well, that’s evidence for you 🙄

Your concern is children paying for furlough wages in the future? Why not support a windfall tax on the billionaires that have made extra billions out of the emergency?

And yes, survival rate is high. But if you work in a hospital, surely you must know that the care need is high as well, and unless you're prepare to stop treating covid patients THERE WON'T BE THE FACILITIES TO TREAT OTHER PATIENTS until covid is under control.

And a huge part of bringing infection rates under control is reducing opportunities for transmission. Such as 31 people in a classroom without PPE, opening windows (or even windows in at least 2 of DC's classes) and no room for even a metre between them.

Dosandbabies - that your school will be fine is also anecdotal and can’t be extrapolated to even school. It doesn’t negate my point that not all schools are exclusively staffed by young, fit healthy people.
Some schools may be fine, others will not.

I take great issue with your thread title OP, universally declaring yourself as standing up for all parents. I'm a parent and you're not standing for what I want at all. How dare you act as if you stand for everyone who isn't a teacher!

Actually, coming back to this "But there is a very fine line where I feel this is excessive and I also want to protect my children's mental health, education and general well-being."

What are you suggesting? That we stop treating covid patients? Something else?

@DameFanny

Your concern is children paying for furlough wages in the future? Why not support a windfall tax on the billionaires that have made extra billions out of the emergency?

And yes, survival rate is high. But if you work in a hospital, surely you must know that the care need is high as well, and unless you're prepare to stop treating covid patients THERE WON'T BE THE FACILITIES TO TREAT OTHER PATIENTS until covid is under control.

And a huge part of bringing infection rates under control is reducing opportunities for transmission. Such as 31 people in a classroom without PPE, opening windows (or even windows in at least 2 of DC's classes) and no room for even a metre between them.

I will refer you to my comment. I know and probably understand better than most what the rules are in place for., especially in relation to the NHS.

But I worry for my children. And I am allowed to do so. You on the other hand seem a little unhinged and should potentially stop reading headlines and try and gain some perspective.