I fucking knew it. Second vaccine dose.

[NiceGerbil]

News is that people who have had first dose are only getting second 3 months later. Against the guidelines of the org who made the vaccine.

I said this rush to push it out would result in, how are they going to follow up and make sure they get the second?

And here we go. Second dose not organised. UK govt say this is AOK.

FFS. I'd rather they took the time to do it properly. But hey. Pissup in a brewery situation again.

I said a few days ago to DH. Are they properly tracking this to make sure the follow up jab isn't missed?

I was too optimistic. Govt have decided second jab isn't that important.

FFS.

[quote turnitonagain]@IcedPurple I’m in Asia, not China (more specific would be outing). Vaccines arriving in next month or two. We don’t have an overwhelmed healthcare system or uncontrolled outbreak so it’s not as urgent.[/quote]
So your unnamed country - and most Asian countries have very large populations so not sure how naming it could 'out' you - won't vaccinate a single person for weeks? Maybe wait and see how that goes before declaring Britain, which currently has vaccinated a higher % of its population than almost anywhere else - a flop.

@donewithitalltodayandxmas OxfZ and Pfizer both kept MHRA informed on progress of all the trial data, hence why they have been approved so quickly... thats from the MHRA.

Hancock told the Commons in May that the UK govt had ordered 100m OxfZ vaccines......

if you want to vaccinate 1 or 2 million people per week, you have to prepare in advance... Uk hasn't.... if a vaccine wasn't available so quickly, at least we have 10s of 1000s of folk ready to go.

@IcedPurple I would rather be in a country with low COVID rates and vaccinated in 3-6 months than have to cope with winter in the UK and an NHS at capacity.

And it’s outing in the context of my posting history.

[quote DuncinToffee]Sandy Douglas, vaccine researcher at Oxford:

This issue is, appropriately, contentious. As a vaccinologist - & citizen & relative of people in at-risk groups - I fully support the UK decision to increase dose intervals of both our Ox/AZ product and the Pfizer product. I'd happily receive either with a >8w gap. Here's why
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1344949258483621888.html[/quote]
Good thread, thanks for sharing. This article from the Atlantic was shared on it, which makes thought-provoking reading:

www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/12/virus-mutation-catastrophe/617531/

[quote turnitonagain]@IcedPurple I would rather be in a country with low COVID rates and vaccinated in 3-6 months than have to cope with winter in the UK and an NHS at capacity.

And it’s outing in the context of my posting history.[/quote]
COVID-19 cases are spiking across Asia once again. In South Korea, it’s the third peak in infections—the highest since the beginning of March. Hong Kong is experiencing its fourth COVID-19 wave. Japan, Indonesia and Malaysia all hit daily records at the end of November.

Source: Time

[quote turnitonagain]@IcedPurple I would rather be in a country with low COVID rates and vaccinated in 3-6 months than have to cope with winter in the UK and an NHS at capacity.

And it’s outing in the context of my posting history.[/quote]
The discussion is about the vaccine roll-out though.

It seems a bit premature to dismiss Britain as having failed 'miserably' when they are still well ahead of almost everywhere else, including your unnamed country which isn't even due to get started for weeks.

This letter sums up the concerns

I can't keep reading all these fanciful, hopeful, rationalising posts, full of bad maths, about how this is probably a good idea to go against the Pfizer dosing schedule and existing data

The maths isn't my strong point but I recognise self delusion when I see it, and I'm convinced some of the angst is down to those who've placed so much hope in the vaccines seeing their hopes fading

It's not an attractive position to be in for anyone, but it may well hasten the realisation that the only realistic answer is to learn to live with the virus ... which is actually what some have been saying from the very start

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I can't keep reading all these fanciful, hopeful, rationalising posts, full of bad maths, about how this is probably a good idea to go against the Pfizer dosing schedule and existing data

The maths isn't my strong point but I recognise self delusion when I see it, and I'm convinced some of the angst is down to those who've placed so much hope in the vaccines seeing their hopes fading

It's not an attractive position to be in for anyone, but it may well hasten the realisation that the only realistic answer is to learn to live with the virus ... which is actually what some have been saying from the very start

I don’t know about vaccine dose situation but one things for sure were getting further from the realisation you mention. As things close down.

You could well be right, Marshal, but I spoke of "hope" and I guess I'm doing the same ... this time that a little more balance is found around risk and consequences while there's still anything left to hope for

@thatwastheriver, are you new to MN? I ask because I have seen pretty much nothing bar criticism of the govt handling throughout...how can this be the first thread you have seen? It is one of thousands!

No not new, but I name changed recently and I very rarely post. I stand corrected. I haven't done a full survey but it has seemed to me that the majority of coronavirus threads reflect a very high level of unquestioning acceptance. That's why I was glad to see some thoughtful criticisms here.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I can't keep reading all these fanciful, hopeful, rationalising posts, full of bad maths, about how this is probably a good idea to go against the Pfizer dosing schedule and existing data

The maths isn't my strong point but I recognise self delusion when I see it, and I'm convinced some of the angst is down to those who've placed so much hope in the vaccines seeing their hopes fading

It's not an attractive position to be in for anyone, but it may well hasten the realisation that the only realistic answer is to learn to live with the virus ... which is actually what some have been saying from the very start

Thats a great attitude to have if you are likely to be one of those doing the living with.

Not so great for anyone liable to be affected directly or indirectly and at serious risk of harm.

A very fair point, RedToothBrush, and please don't imagine I'm suggesting it would be easy
It's just that I sincerely believe that, in the end, there may be no other choice

We certainly need to watch out for people ( even NHS nurses ) lying presumably for political reasons www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9106509/Coronavirus-London-childrens-hospital-consultant-says-wards-NOT-youngsters-Covid.html

the only realistic answer is to learn to live with the virus

What does learning to live with it look like to you? Presumably you’re talking about eventually reaching herd immunity, or simply letting the virus go until it everyone has had it, and those that are going to die have died? What will those months and years be like? What will the cost be in lives and livelihoods? What is acceptable to you, and why is using an imperfect vaccine (and they are all imperfect) less acceptable?

1st jab still gives up to 70% immunity. They are taking the approach that it's better to have everyone with slightly less immunity than fewer people with higher immunity whilst others have none

But surely we are having to learn to live with it using mitigation - for now we are using quite severe restrictions to manage and control it whilst we roll out imperfect vaccinations and treatments and as the number who have had the vaccine or had it the restrictions will go down and dwindle unless there is an outbreak that needs controlling

@Pyewhacket

You’re the one talking bollocks. People are already getting their second dose.

No, the OP was not talking "bollocks" at all. Doctors are trying to push back but this is what the government says. Wondering whether the licensing arrangement with Pfizer/BioNTech allows the government to deviate like this. They are just messing up everything. What an awfully incompetent lot they are.

WiseUpJanetWeiss the same's been asked so many times, and FWIW "living with it" looks pretty ghastly to me in terms of the consequences ... it's just that I'm not convinced they look any worse than those of what's being done now

Of course we have to give the vaccines a try, and if they work that's wonderful; however some of us are thinking ahead to if they don't

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

the only realistic answer is to learn to live with the virus

What does learning to live with it look like to you? Presumably you’re talking about eventually reaching herd immunity, or simply letting the virus go until it everyone has had it, and those that are going to die have died? What will those months and years be like? What will the cost be in lives and livelihoods? What is acceptable to you, and why is using an imperfect vaccine (and they are all imperfect) less acceptable?

Natural herd immunity doesn't work, so living means what exactly? Echoing the scepticism here. The zero covid approach from New Zealand is the one to go for. Track, trace, immunize, don't let it go rampage cause that will cause more new strains.

@EreLongDoneDoDoesDid

It’s this government. It wouldn’t be them if it wasn’t a total and complete fucking cock up.

Sadly oh so true.

@Quartz2208

But surely we are having to learn to live with it using mitigation - for now we are using quite severe restrictions to manage and control it whilst we roll out imperfect vaccinations and treatments and as the number who have had the vaccine or had it the restrictions will go down and dwindle unless there is an outbreak that needs controlling

But we are living with it "with mitigation" aren't we? And we're still in the shit. The elderly and vulnerable are still catching it in supposedly safe environments such as hospitals and care homes. Teachers, nurses & doctors are off work due to covid so can't do their normal jobs. Routine medical appointments are being cancelled/postponed. Businesses are closing at an ever increasing rate. What, exactly, does your "living with it with mitigation" actually look like?

I think once the AstraZeneca vaccine is available they’ll be pushing that as it’s easier to store and more cost effective.

My friend had she first jab of the Pfizer vaccine and the doctor did say it was likely that her second jab would be delayed as they want to get as many people to have their initial jab as possible. He did say that a delay in the second gap won’t make the jab any less effective.

@MusicMan65

Heard this an hour ago on the radio news. Here's my 2p worth.

If I were in one of the the vulnerable categories and I had already had the 1st jab and was then told that it was "70% effective" and that my 2nd jab (in order to get 100% protection) was now going to be 3 months away, I wouldn't change my way of living (shielding/isolating) AT ALL!

Why sacrifice almost a year of going without many of the things that make life worthwhile, only to be then struck and possibly killed by the virus after relaxing my regime?

This is what the clever people in charge of all this miss - real people don't run their lives by statistics and numbers. As human beings we are primarily intuitive creatures with a well honed sense of self preservation. A jab that is 70% effective might just as well be 7% effective TBH.

IMO they should focus on the most vulnerable groups first and give all of them them the 2nd jab after 3 weeks. Since those groups are where the most fatalities occur, they would actually save more lives that way, and protect those most likely to catch (and die from) the virus, rather than going for cheap popularity by vaccinating millions of people with a 70% effective jab that will change NOTHING in terms of how people actually live their lives!

If these people are so damn clever, how come they seem to understand nothing about human psychology? Ridiculous!

I know I'm in a minority but I don't care.

There I've said it, feel better now, thanks for listening.

With you on this. And very well put.