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Original poster

I fucking knew it. Second vaccine dose.

914 replies

NiceGerbil · 01/01/2021 03:22

News is that people who have had first dose are only getting second 3 months later. Against the guidelines of the org who made the vaccine.

I said this rush to push it out would result in, how are they going to follow up and make sure they get the second?

And here we go. Second dose not organised. UK govt say this is AOK.

FFS. I'd rather they took the time to do it properly. But hey. Pissup in a brewery situation again.

I said a few days ago to DH. Are they properly tracking this to make sure the follow up jab isn't missed?

I was too optimistic. Govt have decided second jab isn't that important.

FFS.

OP posts:
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FourTeaFallOut · 01/01/2021 08:10

No, he has to continue to follow the rules. As he always did, regardless.

Namenic · 01/01/2021 08:12

They should also vaccinate older teachers early - especially as key worker kids and vulnerable kids will have face to face teaching

FourTeaFallOut · 01/01/2021 08:13

No credible benefit? Nigh on 100% effective at protecting against severe illness and death...no benefit???

RogueV · 01/01/2021 08:17

It is actually a very wise decision

Bathroom12345 · 01/01/2021 08:18

Some people are incredibly selfish. Me me me all the time and stuff everyone else. You do know it will give more protection to many others as opposed to just you and your relative.

Bluethrough · 01/01/2021 08:18

@FourTeaFallOut

No credible benefit? Nigh on 100% effective at protecting against severe illness and death...no benefit???
I think the point is we do not know how long that protection will last, long term trials have not been done.

Interesting that before Blair suggested this new approach, it was never talked about and when he did, it was poo hoo'd by the govt and its scientists.

Its a gamble and based on getting the 2nd dose out within 12 weeks.

Whenwillow · 01/01/2021 08:20

I don't know enough about it to know if it's a good idea or not. However if the manufacturer has created a drug that works via 2 jabs 21 days apart, it would seem sensible to administer it properly as per instructions. I imagine it's better they give fewer people a vaccine (properly) that is more likely to protect them, than double the number and have those people not protected much, or at all.
It must be very disconcerting for the patients caught up in it Sad

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 01/01/2021 08:20

@BonnieDundee

I have no medical knowledge at all but I would personally take the word of the BMA over the lying charlatan that is our PM any day.
Well quite, but this isn’t Johnson’s decision. The MHRA backs the approach. Any temporary marketing authorisation is subject to change. All marketing authorisations are influenced by the regulator and do not just go with the manufacturer’s wishes.

I’m on the fence about this (Pfizer, not AZ - the AZ decision seems uncontroversial). On the one hand this approach gives more coverage more quickly, but on the other there are consent and organisational issues. I would have preferred all the 2nd appointments to have been kept and then to switch, I think.

I’ll be interested to see what Indie SAGE has to say about this.

FourTeaFallOut · 01/01/2021 08:21

I bet there are 23000 people sat in a hospital bed right now wishing they were "only" innoculated against illness and death, and all the paramedics that got them there, the doctors and nurses that look after them, all their family.

hettyhooverdoover · 01/01/2021 08:21

@FourTeaFallOut

I bet there are 23000 people sat in a hospital bed right now wishing they were "only" innoculated against illness and death, and all the paramedics that got them there, the doctors and nurses that look after them, all their family.
Yes, very true 👍
BonnieDundee · 01/01/2021 08:21

I have no medical knowledge at all but I would personally take the word of the BMA over the lying charlatan that is our PM any day.

Are you suggesting the pm organised the vaccine regimen?

I'm suggesting that he's fucking up running the country and making the decisions

hettyhooverdoover · 01/01/2021 08:22

@Namenic

They should also vaccinate older teachers early - especially as key worker kids and vulnerable kids will have face to face teaching
Absolutely!
BooksAreNotEssentialInWales · 01/01/2021 08:23

@Namenic

I think the govt have messed most things up. However I don’t think on balance this is a terrible approach. People are right that it is a risk that the jab will be less effective. But the other risk is the hospitals being overwhelmed, that the jab could mitigate.

Personally I would do a mixture of approaches and collect data - so that they can make earlier decisions to proceed faster with single or double roll-out. I would do double roll-out to healthcare/care workers and most vulnerable, then collect data on people with single roll-out (and delayed follow-up jab).

I would think the use of dexamethasone for covid was off-label, so sometimes if you do not try things (in a controlled, measured way), you won’t have new discoveries.

When people had decamethasone they knew it was off label. They were also hospitalised with severe Covid. The risks were balanced and they consented on this basis. People have consented to having the vaccine on a schedule recommended and tested and now that’s being changed. These people may have made a different decision if they had been told but they can’t now. This undermines the basis of informed consent. You can argue it’s for the greater good but at some point individual rights must be prioritised. I’d suggest informed consent, the basis of medical care, meets that threshold. Health staff are saying they wouldn’t have consented to this regime but it’s too late.
FourTeaFallOut · 01/01/2021 08:24

Well, you are mistaken Bonnie, he wasn't sat in the MHRA figuring out how to administer vaccines.

Namenic · 01/01/2021 08:25

What they should also be doing is setting up data collection in hospitals and track and trace - to see whether close contacts of cases are more likely to have had the jab or not. I don’t think it is that clear whether vaccine prevents transmission right? Just severity of illness.

Takethereigns · 01/01/2021 08:27

@FourTeaFallOut

No credible benefit? Nigh on 100% effective at protecting against severe illness and death...no benefit???
The way I have read it is that it’s 95% effective with a second dose given after 3 weeks. It’s not been tested with a second dose given after 3 months.

Someone earlier in the thread has shared an article stating after 1 dose it’s only 52% effective.

The Uk being the first country to roll out vaccinations means other countries can learn from them and any mistakes made. It will remain to be seen if this is a mistake or not.

Cam77 · 01/01/2021 08:27

Seems to me like they're doing it to try to bring down overall transmission rates in the short term (get the economy going).

50% protection dropping to possibly zero after a few weeks later, isn't quite good as 95%.

Have tests even been done on the efficacy of the second dose after 12 weeks? Doesn't sound like it.....

The safety and efficacy of the vaccine has not been evaluated on different dosing schedules as the majority of trial participants received the second dose within the window specified in the study design," Pfizer said.

Wherediditgo · 01/01/2021 08:28

I think it’s a good move if it turns out that efficacy is still high. But what I’m confused about is - how do they know?? I read the second dose
Is ‘likely’ to improve protection marginally but can they really afford to make this call? What if they’re wrong? Especially with the Pfizer as it’s new technology?
Is it possible that the first Pfizer jab will be a waste if people are forced to wait too long for the second jab? That the protection ‘runs out’ and people have to start the whole process again?

I’m not an expert so I’m not going to get hysterical about it like some are, but it does seem worrying that this hasn’t been thought through?

Cam77 · 01/01/2021 08:30

The safety and efficacy of the vaccine has not been evaluated on different dosing schedules as the majority of trial participants received the second dose within the window specified in the study design," Pfizer said.

So much for following the science.... Seriously what the fuck are they doing?

butterpuffed · 01/01/2021 08:30

I think it must have been a very difficult decision ~ administer the first dose to as many as they can as soon as possible or deliver the second before giving others the first. We don't have an endless stream of people able to administer the vaccine especially when hospitals are overrun.

inquietant · 01/01/2021 08:30

The problem is it'll be a good idea if it works, and a bad idea if it doesn't.

They know the two doses on the vaccine schedule work, they hope the two doses given apart work.

Our government is always hoping.

Cam77 · 01/01/2021 08:31

@wherediditgo

They don't know. They're gambling.
The safety and efficacy of the vaccine has not been evaluated on different dosing schedules as the majority of trial participants received the second dose within the window specified in the study design," Pfizer said.

scubadive · 01/01/2021 08:31

My mum is 84 on on the extremely clinicically vulnerable list but hasn’t been able to have her first vaccine yet so yes they should give everyone one before starting with a second.

Her group of GP practices were sent 150 vaccines against a list of 750 over 80 years and extremely clinical vulnerable. She was told ethnicity and 2 co-morbidity factors qualified you for the first batch.

She has many friends in other GP groups who are over 80 but not extremely clinical vulnerable and they have had the vaccine before her. It seems tgat the vaccine was not distributed on need but a small amount sent out to all practices, those practices with lower numbers of clinically vulnerable have been able to vaccinate some other patients.

It’s not fair to all this who have been shielding since last March, my mum has not been out anywhere since then, she hasn’t seen me or her grandchildren for almost a year and yet some of her friends who have been going out and about throughout,seeing family etc have now had the vaccine, they shouldn’t also get a second dose of not enough to go round.

What I don’t understand is that we were told we had bought 4 million Pfizer vaccines which is enough to vaccinate all the over 80 and care home staff but supplies don’t seem to be coming through.