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I fucking knew it. Second vaccine dose.

914 replies

NiceGerbil · 01/01/2021 03:22

News is that people who have had first dose are only getting second 3 months later. Against the guidelines of the org who made the vaccine.

I said this rush to push it out would result in, how are they going to follow up and make sure they get the second?

And here we go. Second dose not organised. UK govt say this is AOK.

FFS. I'd rather they took the time to do it properly. But hey. Pissup in a brewery situation again.

I said a few days ago to DH. Are they properly tracking this to make sure the follow up jab isn't missed?

I was too optimistic. Govt have decided second jab isn't that important.

FFS.

OP posts:
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BonnieDundee · 01/01/2021 09:03

Who do the MRHA report to? Is it their job to advise government or do they actually make the decisions?

They make the decisions.

Thank you. It seems I owe Boris an apology in this instanceXmas Smile

MusicMan65 · 01/01/2021 09:03

Sorry, I meant "are you able to put numbers on that?"

DuchessofDerbyshire · 01/01/2021 09:06

@MusicMan65

DuchessofDerbyshire said:

"The 2nd dose gives only marginally more protection".

My response:

Are you put numbers on that? If it's not 70%/30%, then what are the actual numbers? And would you take a gamble with your own life after getting the 1st jab and being told that you were now only 70% protected?

Also, if the numbers for the 2 jabs are 90%/100% and not 70%/100% then why has the 70/100 been widely reported in the media this morning?

Again I come back to the psychology of all this. In the human mind, the difference between a 30% risk and a 10% risk is actually huge!

Economists make similar calculations, and so do all of us - in the shops for example. 10% off? Meh. 50% off? Gimme gimme gimme...

BTW Duchess, are you actually in Derbyshire? I'm near Bakewell, home of the famous PUDDING of course (note for non-Derbyshire people, it's NOT a Tart it's a PUDDING!) LOL...

I said that my 90% protection was an example, not necessarily fact.

I think it is fair to jab as many people as possible so it cuts deaths and hospitialisation. It gives breathing space- literally :)

I also think that people need to realise that until we know better, 1 dose gives good protection but not complete immunity BUT it will lessen the deadly effects if they catch it SO they still need to observe a lot of the current measures (like not hugging their granny even if they have both been vaccinated) and being sensible.

But that is probably too much to ask, given the current rates and the very obvious rule-breaking everyone sees and reads about here on this site!

I love Bakewell, by the way!

silverstarfish · 01/01/2021 09:07

@tenredthings

My elderly frail dad has had his first dose and now been told his second dose, due next week, is to be delayed.

He lives alone and has been self isolating since March . He now won't know if he will have any benefit at all from his semi administered vaccine. Does he risk it, start to live his life again, only to find he catches Covid because he's not properly immune ? How will he know ? Or can he go about his life potentially spreading Covid under a false assumption he is ' vaccinated' ?

He's taken on the risk of being the first to have the vaccine but without any credible benefit.

I'm furious. This government is a joke. It's all about how many people they can say are 'vaccinated'. Bloody pointless waste of time and money if it's not effectively administered.

Are people who have had two doses going to be told they can live life as normal straight away?

I thought they hadn’t confirmed that the vaccination stopped transmission, therefore vaccinated people can still be spreading it.

I was under the impression that measures would have to be kept in place for all until numbers of cases reduced.

I have family members who have had the first dose and were due to have the second next week. They’re very vulnerable so with cases still so high I wasn’t expecting that they’d start living life as normal until cases reduced significantly. Maybe I’m over cautious though.

jasjas1973 · 01/01/2021 09:07

Epidemiologists on Twitter have been speculating about this, saying there’s a notional risk that having a semi-vaccinated section of population in a pandemic could create the right conditions for a new vaccine-dodging variant

A bit like when you don't finish your course of antibiotics, it gives the bacterial the chance to "learn" how to become resistant.

Pfizer will still get their money as the UK (and every other country) still has to honour its order of 40m doses, so not sure on the commercial interest angle?

olympicsrock · 01/01/2021 09:08

I agree with the decision- it will protect more people and won’t cause a problem for vaccine efficacy ( doctor).

CovidHalloween · 01/01/2021 09:08

While they are at it, why don’t they split each vaccine shot into two or more and then give it to more people this way?
This way they can double or triple or even quadruple the people “vaccinated” too! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

SexTrainGlue · 01/01/2021 09:08

@TrufflyPig

They have seen evidence you haven’t seen

How could they have possibly seen evidence that doesn't exist? Pfizer trialled the vaccine using this time gap between doses. They did not collect data for a longer gap.

Pfizer in general are arseholes but they aren't wrong here.

Agree

This isn't going to be unsafe, but we don't know about the effectiveness

And of course, unless the capacity for administering vaccine doubles in the 12 weeks, then there will need to be a pause with next to no first shots given for the 12 weeks of second shots.

So if you are looking out to 24 weeks ahead, it's the same number of people in same priorities vaccinated, but in a schedule while effectiveness has not been tried out before.

Unless, as I say, they can double capacity in time to have new and second shots running together.

Kazzyhoward · 01/01/2021 09:09

Some people are missing the bigger picture. Lives WILL be saved by giving more people the first dose sooner. That has to be more important than 90 year old Mrs Miggans getting her second dose so she can go shopping. Saving lives trumps loosening restrictions/precautions.

grannysbay · 01/01/2021 09:10

I was really looking forward to receiving the vaccine. 50% protection - might as well not bother. I still get flu most years despite getting the jab, and this strategy offers less protection

FourTeaFallOut · 01/01/2021 09:11

50% protection - might as well not bother.
Almost complete protection from illness and death, but I'll have yours if you can't be arsed

Kazzyhoward · 01/01/2021 09:13

Currently they are promising "normality" by Easter

No they're not at all. They said some restrictions will start to be reduced by Easter.

Haffiana · 01/01/2021 09:15

@Kazzyhoward

Some people are missing the bigger picture. Lives WILL be saved by giving more people the first dose sooner. That has to be more important than 90 year old Mrs Miggans getting her second dose so she can go shopping. Saving lives trumps loosening restrictions/precautions.
The problem is that we do not know that 'lives will be saved'. Because there is NO CLINICAL EVIDENCE that this will work.
Haffiana · 01/01/2021 09:16

@FourTeaFallOut

50% protection - might as well not bother. Almost complete protection from illness and death, but I'll have yours if you can't be arsed
We do not know that it is 'almost complete protection blah' because there is no clinical evidence that this is the case.

One jab may only last for 4 weeks. We do not know.

AdultHumanFemale · 01/01/2021 09:16

DP called me from work yesterday afternoon saying he'd be late home as he and a group of colleagues had literally just been summoned to travel to a vaccination facility for their first jabs. As I hung up, the radio in the kitchen just made the announcement that second doses would be delayed. I asked him about it when he got home, and he said they'd been told less than 20 minutes before to expect to be called for second doses in 3 weeks.
So frustrating. Now he's thinking it's not going to be as effective, which will be rubbish in his line of work.

TrufflyPig · 01/01/2021 09:17

My worry in giving everyone one dose first is that you will have partially immune people walking around like they are bullet proof. Could lead to a rapid spread of the disease.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 01/01/2021 09:17

@TrufflyPig

Ah bless smile I disagree with a lot of their decisions, but that's not how it works.

No need to patronise, I obviously wasn't being serious about it just being those two deciding. But collectively those in charge at large have been ignoring SAGE advice or acting upon it too late. It doesn't matter how many of them are in the room, they have time and time again made the wrong decisions to the detriment of the public. They need holding to account.

Ah OK, apologies. I misunderstood the point of your posts. Totally agree about this government. Inept, corrupt, callous, self-serving and contemptuous of the people of this country.
Poppingnostopping · 01/01/2021 09:18

Reducing vulnerable people's risk by 70% is great...but not enough to change pretty much anything for them personally, like being able to see family if in a care home, go out more if they are very elderly. They are still at some considerable risk.

Also, drop out at 12 weeks will be higher than at 4 weeks, people have the momentum, but communication/logistics 12 weeks later, when they are already vaccinating large numbers of others will just mean many people don't get the dose now.

Pfeizer couldn't run a hugely long trial which is probably why the dosing regime was 4 weeks apart, given the pressure to produce an effective vaccine, but it does now mean that we are not following the manufacturer's instructions which I think is very very foolish, I think the first million people should have been vaccinated with the four week schedule, you could then have a baseline (although they are not in a trial) to consider departing from this. It's not even clear the vaccines work in the real world how they did in the lab, as the groups tested in the trials are pre-selected, and screened, so no bad allergies, no really old people- we have no idea how the jab will or won't work in these populations, so that should have been the first thing to establish, not whether the first dose protection holds for less than 12 weeks...

It is a slow and steady wins the race here. I don't agree with them departing from the schedule, because I think it's debatable whether vaccinating more at 70% efficacy will really produce any step change in behaviour, ability to socialise, anything- the first batch should have been given exactly as specified in the wider real world population and then, three months later once we had some initial idea of how that went, a mass vaccination using only one dose could have been in place.

This is a long game, it is not at all true that this will be over by Easter for all kinds of complex logistical and psychological reasons.

Changi · 01/01/2021 09:19

The problem is that we do not know that 'lives will be saved'. Because there is NO CLINICAL EVIDENCE that this will work

If they haven't tested the efficacy of one dose, how did they know that two were needed?

jasjas1973 · 01/01/2021 09:20

@Kazzyhoward

Currently they are promising "normality" by Easter

No they're not at all. They said some restrictions will start to be reduced by Easter.

April the 5th and things will be "much much much better" according to Johnson.

This from the man who has over promised and under delivered from last March.

Punxsutawney · 01/01/2021 09:20

granny I'd take yours. I'm back to work in a primary school next week with no PPE or social distancing. Looking online, I won't be due a vaccine until after the end of this academic year. So I'd take even 50% protection now, if it was on offer.

SofiaMichelle · 01/01/2021 09:20

@grannysbay

I was really looking forward to receiving the vaccine. 50% protection - might as well not bother. I still get flu most years despite getting the jab, and this strategy offers less protection
You get flu most years?

That's quite astonishing!

Bluntness100 · 01/01/2021 09:21

I also logically ghink this is a good idea. Even if it’s seventy percent effective at one dose, then you protect seventy percent of your population much more quickly, and the org who created it didn’t say it wouldn’t be effective at the three months.

Uiseag · 01/01/2021 09:21

If this change is such a good idea, why was it not planned this way in the first place.

C8H10N4O2 · 01/01/2021 09:22

This may be true, BUT we can't wait for the answers when the virus is out of control and the reality - which we do know- is that many more people will die without some kind of vaccination programme asap

We must do something this is something, rather than step back and manage more effectively is partly what got us to the state of having amongst the highest death rates alongside higheste economic hit. If we undermine the effect of the vaccine programme even more people will die.

The answers to all your questions will become clearin time. They can't halt the vaccine programme meanwhile. They also admit very clearly that they do not know if vaccinated people can still carry and infect others

Well only if they gather comprehensive and disagregated data, systems for which are not yet in place. The point is this is a bloody great experiment being presented as scientifically proven. If one does does not give enough immunity and does not stop people spreading then we could make things worse.

There is a lot that's unknown BUT the alternative- waiting- is far worse

You see this is where I really disagree. More haste less speed comes time mind. Knee jerk reactions and constant late changes has been part of the problem. Give those in the programme their second doses, particularly of the Pfizer vaccine which is largely a new type of vaccine and consider planning Oxford on a different schedule and involve people actually delivering primary care. The degree to which Dr Helen Salisbury was being patronised and dismissed by her namesake this morning when she raised some of the practical issues didn't inspire confidence in the decision making process.

Like you however I have a 90+ relative still not vaccinated or called up whereas their 80 yr old friends have been. We suspect very old people are bottom of the list despite the criteria being 'old age first'.

I suspect this is true, particularly where they are not in care homes. However that is based on anecdata only in my case.

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