I fucking knew it. Second vaccine dose.

[NiceGerbil]

News is that people who have had first dose are only getting second 3 months later. Against the guidelines of the org who made the vaccine.

I said this rush to push it out would result in, how are they going to follow up and make sure they get the second?

And here we go. Second dose not organised. UK govt say this is AOK.

FFS. I'd rather they took the time to do it properly. But hey. Pissup in a brewery situation again.

I said a few days ago to DH. Are they properly tracking this to make sure the follow up jab isn't missed?

I was too optimistic. Govt have decided second jab isn't that important.

FFS.

Clearly you haven’t the Pfizer vaccine is only 52% effective after the first dose. Means CEV and elderly will have an extra 9 week wait to leave their homes.

Actually, it is only around 10% effective for the first 10 days. After that (days 10-21) the effectiveness shoots up to around 86%. So that 52% being quoted everywhere is technically correct as it is the average, but it is also incredibly misleading. Sometimes (such as this) using an average is intellectually dishonest.

Nobody, anywhere, should be changing their behaviour because they have had the vaccine. Restrictions will lessen when the numbers of hospitalised cases have dropped. Until then, everyone (including those who have had the vaccine) should stick to the rules.

I’m pleased the vaccines can now be given to twice the number of people. It won’t affect me (I’m not even on the priority list) but with the cases spiralling, hospitals on the verge of being overwhelmed we need to get a lot of people vaccinated ASAP.

@Dinnafashyersel to the contrary the worlds scientific communities jaws dropped on hearing U.K. going against manufacturers trials/guidelines.

[quote Oaktree55]@RedToothBrush how are Israel and UAE surpassing us with Pfizer then if it’s our only way?!?

It’s sheer incompetence that’s forcing this. Other countries are managing.[/quote]
Newsflash: We are not Israel. We are also not UAE.

Our existing frameworks, staff and institutions are different. (See resourcing)

I also bet I know who isn't getting vaccinated in both.

"our vaccines"?

Not a good start to the new year. More Twittery fuckery from the government yet again. I despair......

I’m pleased the vaccines can now be given to twice the number of people. Hear hear. My son is a nurse who was working with covid patients, not now as he is off sick with covid. Maybe if they had used all the 2nd doses they were saving he might have got one dose before he contracted it and would now be one more nurse working. With current sick rates in HCPs you could multiply that many times.

@RedToothBrush the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective after two doses.
The Pfizer 52% after one dose.

How do you know that Oaktree?

Astra is a traditional vaccine. The second jab is for longer immunity, rather than efficiency. It has been tested for a 12 weeks interval between doses. So, this one is going to be used as per manufacturer's instructions. To go from 90% protection to 95%, and longer term. Good.
Then Pfizer's has been thrown in the same bucket, without Pfizer's support. It is a new type of vaccine.
No idea how the Regulator has arrived to this conclusion?
I do think that we need to halt the spread, I do wish that the one jab option works.
I am worried about the NHS staff, carers and so on that will not recieve the vaccines as planned. And if so they will get sick and spread the virus at the very same rate is happening today. Instead of being protected, and act as a blocker in hospital transmission. Which is quite high.

[quote Oaktree55]@RedToothBrush how are Israel and UAE surpassing us with Pfizer then if it’s our only way?!?

It’s sheer incompetence that’s forcing this. Other countries are managing.[/quote]
But as shortages loom, the health ministry has been forced to announce that they will mostly stop administering first doses between January 10 and January 31 to ensure that there is enough stock to give the second dose to the people who have already received the vaccination. This from Isreal, so not managing quite so well then.

@ChloeCrocodile

Clearly you haven’t the Pfizer vaccine is only 52% effective after the first dose. Means CEV and elderly will have an extra 9 week wait to leave their homes.

Actually, it is only around 10% effective for the first 10 days. After that (days 10-21) the effectiveness shoots up to around 86%. So that 52% being quoted everywhere is technically correct as it is the average, but it is also incredibly misleading. Sometimes (such as this) using an average is intellectually dishonest.

Nobody, anywhere, should be changing their behaviour because they have had the vaccine. Restrictions will lessen when the numbers of hospitalised cases have dropped. Until then, everyone (including those who have had the vaccine) should stick to the rules.

I’m pleased the vaccines can now be given to twice the number of people. It won’t affect me (I’m not even on the priority list) but with the cases spiralling, hospitals on the verge of being overwhelmed we need to get a lot of people vaccinated ASAP.

Indeed. This is still that people who want to be Outraged From Tunbridge Wells come up with, rather than actually looking up the data.

The problem with whats happening is fundamental damage to public trust over how its been handled by the government rather than the principle itself and there are plenty out there willing and all too keen to exploit that.

Thats your real problem. Not the policy itself.

@RedToothBrush I’m following both countries it’s v equitable if you care to read up. What’s happening in U.K. is an utter disgrace. Israel is on course to have its vulnerable vaccinated this month.

When will people hold our country accountable for incompetence?!?!?

@AldiAisleofCrap the vaccines don't belong to any particular group. It's a crap situation for all involved, I speak as someone who has to go out to work in a school myself, and am at the bottom of the priority list. If this measure makes life safer for everyone, I think it's really good.

[quote AldiAisleofCrap]@RedToothBrush the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective after two doses.
The Pfizer 52% after one dose.[/quote]
Not entirely true.

True harder.

*try harder.

Very much with you on your many valid points at 13.08, RedToothBrush, except I genuinely believe that, whether around April or later, it really is going to come down to living with it

Nobody pretends that would be easy, but on a cost/benefit basis it may well be that any possible alternative is worse

After that (days 10-21) the effectiveness shoots up to around 86%.

I don't think anyone is debating this, as this is factually proven in the trials.
The real question is that without the 2nd dose how long will this last? and P. said that they don't know as their clinical trials were conducted as per their methodology and not botched up*.

So this is a decision based on wishful thinking and crossed fingers.
How delightful.

Ancientgran. Sorry to hear he is sick. I hope he does get well soon.
In the long term, I think it would be better if we can have the manufacturer's and data's assurances on the vaccines. So a large %of protection. Unfortunatelly, it will not make it on time for all. But 3-6 months later they are meant to be still protected. While going against the manufacturer's instructions may end up with no protection for them after those 3-6 months.

@Hardbackwriter

There should be a rolling program, so as people are getting their 2nd doses, others are getting their 1st doses. It's not either/or, as the companies are continuously manufacturing more vaccine.

Right, but there isn't the capacity or doses right now so every second dose being given could have gone to give someone their first - that's the choice. I don't think anyone is saying that this would be done if that wasn't the issue. To go back to the food analogy about whether to share meagre resources equally or give some people all the good and others none, your solution is just to stand up and say 'we really ought to have more food on this island so everyone can have enough', which is both true and useless.

My solution isn't just to stand up and say we should have more. The food analogy doesn't work on many levels (for example, if nobody had any food, eventually all would die, whereas we know covid infection severity is highly variable; you can feed everyone a little food, but they would soon get hungry again - people would have to conserve their energy or be too weak to move; at least if some people had more 'energy', they could go and hunt or forage for food, to increase supply).

You can share a finite amount of resource, but that's a short-term solution. It might help for the next 3 months, but you will still require additional vaccine doses to be supplied. And all that time, people who have had 1 dose should continue to shield, wear masks etc as we will have no idea how 'immune' the vaccinated folk are.

@BigWoollyJumpers look up the vaccinations I’m Israel to date. They’re world leaders! I’m sure shortages are in horizon but they’ll manage. They’re also giving all their vulnerable the more efficacious Pfizer.

We are gambling as a nation out of desperation and it’s a big gamble.

@ChloeCrocodile

Clearly you haven’t the Pfizer vaccine is only 52% effective after the first dose. Means CEV and elderly will have an extra 9 week wait to leave their homes.

Actually, it is only around 10% effective for the first 10 days. After that (days 10-21) the effectiveness shoots up to around 86%. So that 52% being quoted everywhere is technically correct as it is the average, but it is also incredibly misleading. Sometimes (such as this) using an average is intellectually dishonest.

Nobody, anywhere, should be changing their behaviour because they have had the vaccine. Restrictions will lessen when the numbers of hospitalised cases have dropped. Until then, everyone (including those who have had the vaccine) should stick to the rules.

I’m pleased the vaccines can now be given to twice the number of people. It won’t affect me (I’m not even on the priority list) but with the cases spiralling, hospitals on the verge of being overwhelmed we need to get a lot of people vaccinated ASAP.

I agree with using correct figure not average.

Also agree no one should change behaviour but should stick to rules.

Not sure on two dose part haven’t read up on it.

I think the Regulator needs to explain the rationale of going against the trials outcoming for Pfizer's. In all detail.

@Makingnumber2 My mum is a nurse and is getting her second dose within 4 weeks of the first dose. She said something about the second dose only giving you an additional 5% protection (or thereabouts I can’t remember the exact percentage she said now but it was low)
Your mum is either confused or really really bad at maths! The extra protection from the Pfizer vaccine is 43%.

Our CCG has put out a tweet saying 'given the logistical nightmare of cancelling those already booked for 2nd dose & trying to round up another 2000 patients at no notice and with shattered staff, they will support local NHS practitioners if they just stick with current scheduling and move to first doses with longer spacing down the line'.

I think the initial part of the trials will have some data about efficiency after one dose. And it was based on those that they went for two doses. Because it was not good enough.
And furthermore, they would have optimised the interval between doses.
The optimal solution would always be a single jab. So I would expect any deviation from that to be based on the trial data, on the initial stages of the trials. Once they get to how to apply it optimally, then they will apply it so to the large group of volunteers.
Now, everyone getting the vaccine with longer interval berween the doses is part B of the trial.