I fucking knew it. Second vaccine dose.

[NiceGerbil]

News is that people who have had first dose are only getting second 3 months later. Against the guidelines of the org who made the vaccine.

I said this rush to push it out would result in, how are they going to follow up and make sure they get the second?

And here we go. Second dose not organised. UK govt say this is AOK.

FFS. I'd rather they took the time to do it properly. But hey. Pissup in a brewery situation again.

I said a few days ago to DH. Are they properly tracking this to make sure the follow up jab isn't missed?

I was too optimistic. Govt have decided second jab isn't that important.

FFS.

@Dinnafashyersel not really there’s data for 21 day dosing beyond 21 days. There’s no data for Pfizer at 3 months dosing. Also the data for Oxford isn’t robust for elderly/vulnerable (which is our current burden)

Expert opinion has always been this group get Pfizer. This seems to be changing as it’s “too tricky” for U.K.

We don’t know the outcome. We are in danger of another monumental error!

I had a dentist's appointment in April that was cancelled due to the developing covid situation and has yet to be rescheduled. Was I promised that appointment and can I sue for not having it even though it was a decision made centrally to cancel non-essential appointments due to public health need?

Quite.

I had my cervical smear delayed for 6 months because of Covid. My dad hasn’t had his scheduled chemo because of Covid. So if I developed cervical cancer as a result of the delay or my dad’s cancer got worse would we able to sue? Absolute bollocks. As for people saying they only consented on the basis of getting the next jab 21 days later, yeah sure. Are you really saying that if they’d told you it could be up to 12 weeks you’d have said no? If so, I don’t believe you.

The entitlement is unbelievable. We are in the shit as a country and yet still all people care about is themselves.

@MarinPrime with respect John Campbells videos are useful for some things but re the Oxford Vaccine and the detail he’s missing a lot of detail and seems to have a lot of bias towards it which is unfounded.

@Napqueen1234 Clinically it’s a good decision. You get the majority of protection from the first dose and relatively small top up from the second. It makes far more sense to partially vaccinate millions more people and protect them (especially medical staff etc). Have you read the evidence?
Clearly you haven’t the Pfizer vaccine is only 52% effective after the first dose. Means CEV and elderly will have an extra 9 week wait to leave their homes. And no guarantees the second dose will work on the new vaccine schedule.
Vulnerable are being sacrificed in a half arsed attempt to achieve herd immunity quicker.

DH is a GP and now has to spend next week contacting patients he gave the first vaccine to, to let them know that their second vaccine isn’t now taking place. If he got someone to do some admin for him it would be much more efficient. I bet they could do a letter on mail merge and get them sent out in less than a day. Seems very inefficient way for a GP to work.

@Lalliella

I phoned my mum’s GP surgery yesterday (DM is 85 and CEV) and they said they’d be calling very soon to book the 2 appointments, so the second dose will be scheduled in at that point. It all sounded very organised to me.

That's what we were told too but then they cancelled the second dose.

They are following a logical approach at giving protection across more of the vulnerable population. There is a limited supply of the vaccines available over the coming months.
One dose gives good protection.

You’re the one talking bollocks. People are already getting their second dose.

Is that so? That'll be why our surgery has sent a message out cancelling all the second dose appointments scheduled for next week.

Those suggesting the professionals on the JCVI and MHRA opinion are somewhat tainted because their bodies are funded out of taxpayer funds is an outrageous slur on their integrity

Come off it, GoldGreen; nobody imagines that every single member of the above lacks integrity, but to suggest that they're somehow beyond reproach - or that they're unaffected by politics - is surely to scamper along the margins of the surreal

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/21/nhs-vaginal-mesh-implants-scandal-suppress-media

[quote AldiAisleofCrap]**@Napqueen1234* Clinically it’s a good decision. You get the majority of protection from the first dose and relatively small top up from the second. It makes far more sense to partially vaccinate millions more people and protect them (especially medical staff etc). Have you read the evidence?*
Clearly you haven’t the Pfizer vaccine is only 52% effective after the first dose. Means CEV and elderly will have an extra 9 week wait to leave their homes. And no guarantees the second dose will work on the new vaccine schedule.
Vulnerable are being sacrificed in a half arsed attempt to achieve herd immunity quicker.[/quote]
I don’t think that is correct as the 52% is an average over the 21 days including the first 10-11 days where protection is 0. So following that, once the vaccine kicks in, protection increases significantly.

@ancientgran - letters are no good for patients with appointments this week. One of DH’s colleagues is spending today ringing patients who have their second vaccine booked for Monday. Luckily they didn’t receive the expected number of doses so didn’t give the first vaccine to as many as they had hoped.

It’s not about boosting the efficiency of the jab by 5% with the second, it’s about keeping immunity. As one jab hasn’t been trialled, who’s to say immunity will wear off after 12 weeks if not supplemented but the second which will then say give you 12months worth?

Still agree that frontline NHS should be given it first, not vaccinating GPS and sending them into car homes where the GP might spread it through no fault of their own is bonkers.

What people are still missing is there is ZERO data for Pfizer on the dosing schedule the Government are adopting. To assume it gives protection is an assumption. Re Oxford the data is skimpy for at risk groups yet we’re assuming it’s ok for 25 million.

That’s a lot of assumption!

It seems like a huge gamble. There's no evidence to show this longer gap won't make the Pfizer vaccine less effective overall and it will take a long time to get that data - and it's the most vulnerable who may now get less protection.

Of course if it turns out to not lessen the efficacy, then it's a great idea to give more people some protection quicker. But currently no one knows that's the case, even Pfizer/BioNtech themselves say they don't know.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Good luck with a legal case because you'd have to get around this particular issue as a defence. Public health emergency exemptions cover A LOT

You beat me to it, RedToothBrush - and that's before we even consider the various exemptions from prosecution which have been arranged all along the way

I'll ask yet again, though I've about given up on expecting a reply ... just how long do folk think it'll take before realisation dawns that there may be no alternative to learning to live with this?

I think we will get to that point around April / May. But only with single dose vaccinations.

Before that it will be politically unacceptable. After that, all bets are off.

I'm in my 40s and realistically have no hope of a vaccination before the Summer at the earliest. Its most likely to be July to Sept in a best case scenario.

Seasonality will help matters, but that will still leave me in a position having to make difficult decisions about the level of risk I'm willing to take.

It also may limit what I'm allowed to do. Despite whats been said, vaccination passports (both domestically and internationally) are likely. I am likely to be unable to travel abroad for longer than friends in their 50s or are key workers. (Thats going to cause friction).

And there is a problem with a 1 shot vaccination programme with that in mind. Will it be recognised abroad as sufficient? Some may. Others may not.

Thats why realistically things aren't going to be fully 'back to normal this year'.

But stuff like this isn't a priority either.

Its a numbers game with regard to getting SOME protection for AS MANY as possible AS QUICKLY as possible due to the sheer severity of the current risk and its knock on implications to health more generally.

This is the best - and only - short cut, available to us. There isn't an alternative if we are honest.

'Vulnerable are being sacrificed in a half arsed attempt to achieve herd immunity quicker.'
@AldiAisleofCrap I think the opposite seems true of the past 10 months or so. Significant measures have been put in place to protect the vulnerable and the greater good which is what this strategy is all about.

This is clearly a political response to the shitstorm we are currently in, made worse by the delays in the delivery of the Pfizer vaccine. There is no evidence to support this vaccination strategy and we do not know the impact on long term immunity and the development of memory cells. It is very much a case of the advisors saying 'well, it'll probably be OK' and I can understand why they've said that but lets not pretend this is evidence based medicine. Pfizer quite rightly have pointed out the lack of evidence to support this strategy. I have to say it is somewhat ironic that after all the criticism on here by armchair experts of both Pfizer and AZ's clinical study protocols everyone seems quite happy for the government and its advisors to make up a dosing stategy based on no data whatsoever.

letters are no good for patients with appointments this week. One of DH’s colleagues is spending today ringing patients who have their second vaccine booked for Monday. Luckily they didn’t receive the expected number of doses so didn’t give the first vaccine to as many as they had hoped. As it is Friday and a bank holiday to boot I can't imagine he had vast numbers booked for this week. He should get a temp in and do phone calls for Monday and letters for the rest of next week, or e mails/texts if they have them, much more efficient use of time.

Nobody doubts that "if" giving one dose offered a good protection, then this is the way to go. Ok, they will have to still SD. We all have to, anyway. Sad, but a must.
For me the problem is that pfizer is not supporting this move. So, if we give one jab to people, then other 3 months later, but they are actually no effective and end up being a waste of money, and after 3 or 6 months, the person is not immune. While if they had their second jab on the 21 days, they would be immune adter the 6 months.

@SofiaMichelle Good. Because it was never meant to be 'have the vaccine then go back to normal'. you are missing the point as someone who is CEV I would give anything for your normal to go out wearing a mask and socially distancing rather than not being able to leave the house other than to extremely quite countryside , difficult to navigate in my wheelchair.
Going to a supermarket and choosing my own fruit and veg or meeting a friend on a park bench.
That has now been delayed for nine weeks from when I have my first vaccine.
We don’t need normal we need *your normal!
When you are vaccinated your life won’t change mine and my children’s will.

@RedToothBrush how are Israel and UAE surpassing us with Pfizer then if it’s our only way?!?

It’s sheer incompetence that’s forcing this. Other countries are managing.

Given Covid vaccines have been around for a matter of months there was and is no way to have any evidence of long lasting protection no matter what the trial schedule or roll out. Only time will tell but the alternative would be sitting on our hands. Not saying this would be the wrong decision but collectively the World scientific community seems to be resolved that mass vaccination is preferable.

It makes me so cross the majority don’t read up enough to realise how incompetent our Government are. Other countries are aghast at how off piste we’re going. Other less developed countries are rolling out Pfizer better. Israel over 130 k a day for example!

@IrishMamaMia Significant measures have been put in place to protect the vulnerable and the greater good which is what this strategy is all about. as someone who is CEV you have got to be joking! Do you realise that we are expected to go to work in all but tier three. Our children are expected in school even in tier four. That ssp is routinely offered instead of furlough.
Our vaccines are being given to the general population.

While if they had their second jab on the 21 days, they would be immune adter the 6 months. I thought they didn't know how long the immunity lasted? They can't know much more than a few months as we didn't even know about Covid 12 months ago and we certainly didn't have the vaccine a year ago.