Lateral flow tests - if they allow school children to bypass self isolation why not use them within the nhs?

[YuleAreBeingUnREASTIEable]

I was talking to a friend who works in the nhs yesterday. She has had time off because of waiting for covid test results for her dc. During that time she was asked to come into hospital regardless because they were so short staffed. It seems so many are off ill or self isolating that the whole system is close to collapse.

Which made me think, if lateral flow tests are being rolled out as a way of keeping children in school because they don’t need to self isolate if they test daily, why haven’t they already done this for hospital staff self isolating.

My logic is because the tests aren’t so accurate, but then why are they safe for those in schools (where distancing is impossible with the current guidelines)?

Will you really be impressed when your dd's best friend tests positive and your dd is expected to go into school and mix with all of their little gang on the bus, in class and everywhere so long as they have a swab test known to be significantly poor at picking up positives?

Will you be ok when your dd is sitting next to a kid in science whose best friend/sibling has tested positive for covid?

You need to think with this.

Lets say you worked in a role that required you to sit elbow to elbow with a colleague, without ppe and to share toilet facilities and transport without ppe and your colleague was the close contact of a positive case and carried on right next to you as before?

I can't honestly believe no one can see how different this is to the norm.

In the nhs some loosening of infection control re: close contacts is being sold as a) highly mitigated by good ppe and daily testing and increased rules in areas where people would potentially DIE if staff didn't show some flexibility.

In school it's, let's significantly fail to isolate known close contacts and fail to protect vulnerable staff, student and family members in the hope it will briefly improve attendance figures ignoring the fact that it will actually rapidly shut down education altogether.

It's really not comparable.

Yes my job is valuable in normal times but some 11 yo kids being able to explain to you what they think the main reason Henry broke away from Rome was by the end of w/c 4/1/21 is really not comparable to a someone being able to receive oxygen and their life being saved by that simple intervention.

I honestly don't know why we're living under such restrictions if testing of close contacts with LTF then daily business as usual is an acceptable option. Why is it ok for schools but not wider society?

Education is massively important long term.

Crisis healthcare is critically important right now.

It may be worth taking a small risk of letting a hcp in full ppe come to work with critical patients who would otherwise have no critical care. Allowing known contacts to mingle on a daily basis with hundreds of public transport workers and users, other kids and staff in order that they shouldn't miss out on hearing that the Treaty of Versailles limited te German army to 100,000 men is surely not the same kind of equation

And if you are gearing up to respond with 'what about the vulnerable kids' please explain to me how knowing the capita limit of the german army will make them less vulnerable next week?

Don't say it's because we're a watching eye - we've been watching since they joined us and reported regularly our cause for concern and ss, cahms and the ed psych know and don't give a fuck.

Dear Safeguarding Officer I have a cause for concern for student z. They are frequently inadequately clothed, without equipment, late and make comments of a nature that make it clear they have potentially been exposed to sexual practices or pornography......

2 weeks later...... Dear Ms X, yes we are aware and social services have been involved for 5 years and they have been recorded as having acted inappropriately towards younger children in their last school.

AKA as yeah, we're well aware they're being abused and actually that they have also abused younger children themselves as a result of this and all professionals know but nothing is being done. Thanks for performing your professional duty and noticing that a child (amongst the hundreds you teach) is exhibiting warning behaviour - you are right and rest assured absolutely nothing is or can be done about it due to funding cuts.

To be fair if it picked up 50 % of asymptomatic cases then that would still be an improvement. And it would seem that the most important message is still to treat every friend / student as if they definitely have it .

Also if your child tests positive with no symptoms it will give you as a family with parents and grandparents a chance to stop close contact .

Ok this might be an experiment for schools but there are lots of posters who have been moaning their children have been in isolation for no reason at all with no chance of a test.

Would it not be worth giving it a chance . Nothing is 100% in this world we live in at the moment . I would have thought some testing would be better than nothing at all ?

@Unsure33

To be fair if it picked up 50 % of asymptomatic cases then that would still be an improvement. And it would seem that the most important message is still to treat every friend / student as if they definitely have it .

Also if your child tests positive with no symptoms it will give you as a family with parents and grandparents a chance to stop close contact .

Ok this might be an experiment for schools but there are lots of posters who have been moaning their children have been in isolation for no reason at all with no chance of a test.

Would it not be worth giving it a chance . Nothing is 100% in this world we live in at the moment . I would have thought some testing would be better than nothing at all ?

If it's safe for school staff to take this risk it's ok for everyone.

This is for known close contacts who would normally be at home for 10 days. This better than nothing response is missing the point. It's in place of isolation not instead of nothing and it is only for close contacts and will require kids to travel to and mix at school to access the test.

Maybe people genuinely don't understand that this is a less safe proposal and are assuming it's something extra.

@TheHoneyBadger

This is for known close contacts who would normally be at home for 10 days. This better than nothing response is missing the point. It's in place of isolation not instead of nothing and it is only for close contacts and will require kids to travel to and mix at school to access the test.

Maybe people genuinely don't understand that this is a less safe proposal and are assuming it's something extra.

We've been told you can opt for either isolation, or testing.

The mixing at school for the test is the same as mixing daily, if they are asymptomatic it would be the same, you wouldn't know. With the test at least there is a chance of that asymptomatic but positive pupil to be taken out. It will also be an extra layer of filtering for pupils with "colds" who shouldn't be there either.

You have no say over your child being sat next to a close contact though.

No it's not the same as normal mixing. Close contacts didn't mix they had to isolate.

I'm sure you do understand that

But "mixing daily" wouldn't include close contacts ordinarily, ie those who are more likely to have contracted Covid.

And how does it help with colds?

The mixing at school for the test is the same as mixing daily, if they are asymptomatic it would be the same, you wouldn't know. With the test at least there is a chance of that asymptomatic but positive pupil to be taken out. It will also be an extra layer of filtering for pupils with "colds" who shouldn't be there either.

What are you talking about? This is with regards to the students identified as a close contact of someone who tested positive and are told to self-isolate. It’s only close contacts that will be being tested. There is no daily mixing usually as they are sent home. And it would make no difference if the close contact is asymptomatic or not as they would be self-isolating. But instead they are saying that the identified close contact will now remain in school and test daily. If the close contact child (that would normally be isolating) remains in school and comes down with Covid but it is not picked up by the lateral flow test then they are infecting many many people. Do you understand that?

Why are the teachers doing this and not the parents?

They are. My relative is a community nurse and gets tested using these weekly. Great isn't it, when they're inaccurate, and shes out caring for the sick and elderly!

@Whyisitsodifficult teachers aren't doing the swabbing. Do you mean shouldn't the tests be done at home, presumably because there'd be problems getting them back, and primarily because they're supposed to be read by trained people.

Perhaps the government trust parents even less than they trust schools

@Unsure33

To be fair if it picked up 50 % of asymptomatic cases then that would still be an improvement. And it would seem that the most important message is still to treat every friend / student as if they definitely have it .

Also if your child tests positive with no symptoms it will give you as a family with parents and grandparents a chance to stop close contact .

Ok this might be an experiment for schools but there are lots of posters who have been moaning their children have been in isolation for no reason at all with no chance of a test.

Would it not be worth giving it a chance . Nothing is 100% in this world we live in at the moment . I would have thought some testing would be better than nothing at all ?

I agree that if it picks up asymptotic cases that wouldn’t otherwise then that’s positive, but if it were designed for this it would be all children regularly. But that’s not Johor it’s going to work. It’s all children on return then just close contacts instead of isolation.

On another point, I thought asymptotic people had a lower viral load (happy to have this confirmed or not). If that’s the case then it would be less likely to pick up a positive?

[quote JanuaryChill]@Whyisitsodifficult teachers aren't doing the swabbing. Do you mean shouldn't the tests be done at home, presumably because there'd be problems getting them back, and primarily because they're supposed to be read by trained people.[/quote]
Sorry but who is doing the swabbing in school then? 🤔

@Whyisitsodifficult
Volunteers, admin staff, TAs. Government have said it wont be teachers.

Dds school has asked parents to volunteer. I’m not sure if they’ll be actually doing the swabs or overseeing students doing their own.

Kids will be doing it themselves. We're pretending they'll willingly stick a swab far enough back to the tonsils and swab for 30seconds and ensure they don't touch any part of their mouth which would effect the result and then stick it far enough up their nose and repeat.

With tests that are already unreliable even when performed effectively.

Universities had students do the swabbing themselves. Birmingham found this missed 97% of true positive cases.

@bobbiester

Universities had students do the swabbing themselves. Birmingham found this missed 97% of true positive cases.

Yes-that’s true.

I’ve seen someone on another thread defensively point out that this wasn’t right and it must have been because of some sort of huge problem.

The problem being that the tests don’t work, yes.