Lateral flow tests - if they allow school children to bypass self isolation why not use them within the nhs?

[YuleAreBeingUnREASTIEable]

I was talking to a friend who works in the nhs yesterday. She has had time off because of waiting for covid test results for her dc. During that time she was asked to come into hospital regardless because they were so short staffed. It seems so many are off ill or self isolating that the whole system is close to collapse.

Which made me think, if lateral flow tests are being rolled out as a way of keeping children in school because they don’t need to self isolate if they test daily, why haven’t they already done this for hospital staff self isolating.

My logic is because the tests aren’t so accurate, but then why are they safe for those in schools (where distancing is impossible with the current guidelines)?

We have had the thought that there probably aren't enough tests available for this purpose, so I hope that's true. I think some schools are being sent 1000 LFTs where there are 1500 on roll.

I do not consent to being used as a guinea pig in this way and I wish that anyone outside teaching cared enough to campaign against it.

Yep that is exactly what is happening. We are being forced to spend hours in crowded classrooms with close contacts of positive cases with no PPE or social distancing on the basis of tests with as little as 3% accuracy (Bham paper).
Why the HSE isn't getting involved in this I don't know. I didn't think they could make classrooms more unsafe but they seem to have managed.

Is this really true? Is this how they are going to be used?

Yes it's true. Look at the Dept for Education's website or a decent news article.

Here is the current documentation outlining what happens with close contacts of a positive case in schools.

@everybodysang

Is this really true? Is this how they are going to be used?

Yes.

NO SELF-ISOLATION for close contacts in secondary schools anymore.

And they want to roll this out to primary schools in the next couple of months. So then there'll be no self-isolation for close contacts for any staff or pupil in an English state school.

Horrifying.

Hold on. They are being used in exactly the same way in schools as NHS.

Close contacts in NHS are not isolated either are they? I didn't think they were anymore. That's the whole point of the lft. Perhaps a HCP can confirm.

Close contacts in NHS are not isolated either are they? I didn't think they were anymore. That's the whole point of the lft. Perhaps a HCP can confirm.

No, NHS using them to weed out asymptomatic cases, not in place of isolation.

My DM works in social services and they aren’t allowed to isolate after being a close contact, unless they develop symptoms, there’s simply not enough staff.

Harriet Based on my experience of teaching, nor do we self isolate if a student is a close contact.

They have used them in the NHS

When departments are on their knees and it's a case of break SI or be unable to carry on.

It's used to decide which are the least risky people to bring back in.

And only when the consequences of not bringing staffing up to something not too short of minimal, are a complete fail in care

Which is all rather different from how to control spread within the community

(More people might catch it at home, but someone has to bring it into the home for that to happen)

@everybodysang

Is this really true? Is this how they are going to be used?

Yes.

Absolutely astounding isn’t it?

It's disgusting. BUT lots of people will be falsely reassured and like that it means their kids education isn't as disrupted. They won't look at how accurate the tests are or consider the risks to the wider population.

That's using them on the staff though in nhs who at least wear ppe. This is the equivalent of a patient testing positive on a non Covid ward and the close by patients and visitors carrying on as normal, and the staff in the ward not needing to use ppe, so long as everyone does an Lf test each day for 7 days.

When patient number 2 tests positive the next day you still don't designate that ward as a hot zone (or whatever nhs call infection wards) and just send patient 2 to a Covid ward. Everyone carries on using an Lf test daily.

Even at the point that 70% of the original patients and staff have tested positive the others don't need to isolate and new patients are allowed on the ward because the ward is safe apparently.

Except it's worse because at least those patients are staying in one place. Our students are travelling in on rush hour public transport each day and surging out the gates at 3.10 every day into shops, communities and homes.

How many parents will also use these tests to get their children tested with symptoms and mistakenly send them in with symptoms because that's where you get tested?

BigWoollyJumpers

Depends what you mean by "close contact" I work with Covid positive patients every day, I get in extremely close contact with them but as I'm wearing full PPE I don't have to continue self isolating. If my husband develops COVID symptoms, I have to isolate until he has a negative PCR test, or for the 10 days if he's positive.

IF my husband were positive, I didn't have symptoms and my department was so short staffed that we risked collapse, I would have a LFT AND PCR test daily, I would wear full PPE at all times and wouldn't be able to sit in break rooms with colleagues (we social distance anyway) and I'd use the patient loo (because it's covid positive ward). Very, very different to a school.

Almostjim Whereas in a school, a child sat next to a positive case would have daily lateral flow tests in place of isolation. I think it's abhorrent from the government this is allowed to happen.

In a way teachers will be safer being daily tested as close contacts because we didn't really isolate anyway.

Contacts definitely are isolated in the NHS. That's why we are struggling so much for staff.

The only exception is that if you are in contact with positive patients whilst wearing full PPE it doesn't count as a contact (otherwise wards couldn't be staffed at all)

If you are in contact without PPE in your private life or with colleagues or a patient you didn't know was positive then you self isolate for 10 days just the same as anyone else.

The lateral flow tests are just for screening and have allowed us to pick up some cases early abs isolate them before they spread it further but you cannot rely on a negative being true. Just like the person's friend upthread I have had multiple negatives on lateral flow abs then been positive on PCR and so did my husband despite us both having symptoms.

As a screening tool it's maybe a good idea but to replace isolation of contacts with it is just a stupid idea and I will not consent to it for my daughter (unless I get her an antibody test and she has in fact had it which I suspect given both her parents have been ill)

Because bypassing self isolation isn't safe in schools. So much for testing in schools making things safer. There's going to be spread from children getting a negative test and passing it on when under the previous way they'd have been self isolating and only passing the virus on to their families. Now they'll pass it on to class mates and more families.

NHS staff horrified at the idea of using daily LFT instead of isolation need to be aware that there's a new group on the scene agitating for precisely that.

timeforrecovery.org/ourpositiononcovidtesting/

Probably nothing to worry about, but this group have just issued a joint new year statement with the odious Us4Them who seem to have massively disproportionate influence with the government and media and are behind the campaigns to have no mitigation measures in schools (which is basically where we are at).

So keep an eye on it. If you think it's a terrible idea for schools please speak out. Email your MP. Talk to people with kids in secondary about why it's not safe. Because we are probably the guinea pigs for you.

So children who have been in close contact with a confirmed case will be tested daily for 7 days.

Presumably in the morning of each day? After they've travelled to school on the bus / train. Mingled and messed around with their friends - then gone inside to get tested. Only then might it be discovered that they are positive and a risk to the people around them.

At which point parents (perhaps in a risk group) will be asked to come and collect them - perhaps drive them home in a car (high risk of transmission).

When all this time they could have been safely sat at home in their room playing on the xbox - sorry engaging in "blended learning".

Herc I don't think we'll be safer. A weekly Lf test is nothing compared to the increased risk of carrying on teaching close contacts as they gradually get picked off by positive tests (most likely by diligent parents getting them proper tests outside school).

I'll also be at increased risk from my year 9 son mixing with close contacts with no mitigation all day at school. It'll be a miracle if parent teachers don't get infected.

It's really hard to fathom how the government can pursue this agenda in the face of current infection rates and hospital admissions. And on the world stage who are watching us in horror as we double down on creating the perfect conditions for further advantageous mutations and adaptation.

this was always the plan though - Liverpool was supposed to trial it but im guessing schools doing it now

That's true Honey. I was thinking from a purely selfish point of view that at least we get taken out of circulation from each other if we're positive after being a close contact whereas before we weren't even isolating.

I'm staying at the front and not circulating etc. I feel so unsafe. God knows how primary must feel.