There’s no point with primary schools open

[Agoodbriskwalk]

Whatever you think of them being open, the fact is that with thousands of group gatherings of non mask wearing, non socially distanced, non personal distanced, non handwashing people for hours and hours every day in poorly ventilated building, this thing will continue to spread

On top of that, sleepovers and parties and play dates will continue to happen because ‘they’re in school together anyway’. Do you know how often parents say ‘They're in the same bubble’ like it’s a magical force field?

Families with a mix of primary and secondary kids will allow the secondary kids to meet up even if they’re not in school because what’s the point stopping them when the younger kid is exposed to hundreds of families a day anyway? How can they justify its ‘not safe’ to their teens?

Parents will meet up at the school gates twice a day and stand and chat. Some will also meet in their houses, as their kids are friends and sitting together all day anyway so they know that any Covid family 1 has is most likely going to be spread to family 2 anyway.

Parents will do more things, go more places and take more risks because ‘If we’re going to get it from anywhere it will most likely be from school anyway’.

Ditto teachers. And who can blame them? Teachers should have full access to all of society even under lockdown IMO as they’re not being granted safety in any shape or form so should at least be allowed to have their lives.

Employers will expect employees in in a way that they wouldn’t be able to if primaries were off. But schools are open so there will be an expectation of presenteeism in many many workplaces.

Roads will continue to be busy with schools in so people will get a general feeling of ‘business as usual’ and they will carry on cramming themselves into unnecessary shops.

You might disagree with some of the above. I do. But that’s what is going to happen and there will be many deaths as a result.

@Remmy123 you cannot catch cancer like you can catch covid. Those cancer deaths you mention are happening with covid on top. I'm surprised people still aren't grasping this concept.

And to the pp who mentioned it isn't a race to the bottom. No it isn't, I have respect for teachers and think schools should be closed. I say this someone who works for the NHS who you think should just take it on the chin.
I trained a lot to do my job. I didn't think for one minute I would be wearing a flimsy surgical mask with a covid patient with a huge viral load coughing in my face.
I didn't sign up to die.
Yes I accept that I get more tummy bugs than the general population etc
Over 650 medical personnel have died and guarantee they were not trained to expect that.

@toocold54 I, was talking Primary mainly. My dd was year 2 so still young. Year 11 dd ws more or less abandoned. Although my year 11 was set sine work it was all pretty pointless since exams were cancelled. About to be screwed over again now as she has external exams the day after they go back after missing the last two weeks of term self isolating.
Dd2 year 10 severe anxiety and pretty much out of school before Lockdown was abandoned by therapy services and has now missed about a years education. Only just started with a personal tutor. The school did provide work but it was too much for dd.
COVID is shit but I have to believe they will catch up

How bad will it have to get before other tier 4 primary schools close? I can't believe this is happening.

[quote Carrotcakeforbreakfast]@Remmy123 you cannot catch cancer like you can catch covid. Those cancer deaths you mention are happening with covid on top. I'm surprised people still aren't grasping this concept.

And to the pp who mentioned it isn't a race to the bottom. No it isn't, I have respect for teachers and think schools should be closed. I say this someone who works for the NHS who you think should just take it on the chin.
I trained a lot to do my job. I didn't think for one minute I would be wearing a flimsy surgical mask with a covid patient with a huge viral load coughing in my face.
I didn't sign up to die.
Yes I accept that I get more tummy bugs than the general population etc
Over 650 medical personnel have died and guarantee they were not trained to expect that.[/quote]
Absolutely. I am in a primary school and I caught covid in school.
I ended up in hospital and couldn’t believe that staff were taking us and treating us in covid positive wards with a blue mask and apron , little more than people wear to the supermarket. It’s certainly not what you signed up for either.

I don't think most kids were fine being home for a bit in these circumstances. I thought they were, but now 6 months later, I can see the longer term mental stuff that is going on for lots of them, my 6 year old included. It's not being at home that is the problem, it's the pandemic.

Do you know, my ds primary school actually asked us NOT to wear masks at collection and drop off unless we particularly wanted to or needed to enter the school reception.
They want to keep it as normal for kids as possible. My mind was blown, because now we all queue up and I would say 85% of the parents I queue with stand within less that a meter of me.
However - our school was also the only one in our town to not have a single confirmed covid case the entire Sept to Dec term, which they're saying is down to their measures (i can't help but think it's more luck)

I think it's completely unethical to keep children off school for most of a year when they are not generally at personal risk from covid and are likely to be exposed to it at some point anyway because they won't be vaccinated any time soon.

Education is a basic right. It is fundamentally important and I can't really believe that needs to be said. It is never selfish to want children to have an education. If, before covid, someone had tried to argue that it doesn't matter that children in some developing countries don't receive a full time education throughout their childhood they would rightly have been shouted down. We shouldn't be making children responsible for the lives of others just because they are accessing education. Shutting schools should have been a line we didn't cross.

And if we follow the logic that schools should be closed now where does it end? What if there are still (say) 30,000 cases a day in February or March or September? What if there is a particularly bad flu season or a sick bug going round a school one year? Or one of the pupils or teachers has a weakened immune system so is vulnerable to normal illnesses? Do we shut schools every time to "save lives".

And what if we diverted all education funding to the NHS? We could save thousands of lives each year that way.

And even if you don't think that your own child would suffer by being kept at home because you can provide adequate homeschooling, most parents should have sufficient imagination to realise that that is not the case for every child. By arguing for schools to shut you are arguing for the poorest and most vulnerable children to be left further behind both because of the lost education and because of the risk of parents losing their income if they can't send their children to school. For many of those children the effect will be permanent and not just a matter of having a boring January.

@Mumtofourandnomore

I thought that primary aged children don’t transmit the virus the same as older children - so surely safer to be back ? And it’s right that the economy is a huge priority - lives will be lost and ruined through poverty.

Jesus Christ. Do people REALLY still believe this about younger children?

@Agoodbriskwalk

So the children of the NHS 'heroes' that everyone was clapping for and grateful for had no right to expect to be taught by teachers in school?

Correct. They had a right to be looked after so their parents could work. That’s all.

Last time I checked, they had a statutory right to an education.

All this talk of primary children’s mental health is driving me crazy. Out of a class of 36 we had none with any noticeable issues. All returned fine and apart from some issues with daily routine- not snacking when they wanted and needing to be taught the basics of how to use hand soap- the kids were fine.

Who wasn’t fine was my colleague whose husband caught COVID that she took home in October who ended up on a ventilator for weeks and then died. The mental health of her and her kids was completely flushed down the toilet.

Until we get this under control, schools should not be attempting to function “as normal”.

We need complete lockdown with enforced fines for those breaking the rules. After a month of so, then we can start bringing the kids back for an hour of maths, a break to air the classrooms and an hour for English before going home for the rest of their learning with their parents. Exams and assessments need to reflect this is not a normal year.

Primary schools are not childcare.

The lives of school staff and their families should not come after little Jonnys mums need to not be around her own kids- you had them, now step up and parent.

Employers need to make adjustments and allowances for the changing needs of families in the response to all this- and if they won’t, then fine them too.

@FancySomeChips

All this talk of primary children’s mental health is driving me crazy. Out of a class of 36 we had none with any noticeable issues. All returned fine and apart from some issues with daily routine- not snacking when they wanted and needing to be taught the basics of how to use hand soap- the kids were fine.

Who wasn’t fine was my colleague whose husband caught COVID that she took home in October who ended up on a ventilator for weeks and then died. The mental health of her and her kids was completely flushed down the toilet.

Until we get this under control, schools should not be attempting to function “as normal”.

We need complete lockdown with enforced fines for those breaking the rules. After a month of so, then we can start bringing the kids back for an hour of maths, a break to air the classrooms and an hour for English before going home for the rest of their learning with their parents. Exams and assessments need to reflect this is not a normal year.

Primary schools are not childcare.

The lives of school staff and their families should not come after little Jonnys mums need to not be around her own kids- you had them, now step up and parent.

Employers need to make adjustments and allowances for the changing needs of families in the response to all this- and if they won’t, then fine them too.

That's horrific. I'm so sorry. How traumatic for your school community. I haven't noticed any MH issues with my children either - many of whom are classed as vulnerable. Like you, we could see that they were tired and getting hungry mid morning but nothing else.

Sorry, bit emotional writing that. But most people have no idea what has been like in schools and I’m sick of the teacher bashing from a society who on the whole won’t even cover their nose with a face mask for 7 minutes at the school gate.

@FancySomeChips

Sorry, bit emotional writing that. But most people have no idea what has been like in schools and I’m sick of the teacher bashing from a society who on the whole won’t even cover their nose with a face mask for 7 minutes at the school gate.

so sorry.

You know coronavirus isn't going away, right? It's here to stay, like flu, which incidentally kills thousands of people every year but no one seems to give a shit about that

How have we got an actual year into this pandemic without some people noticing that there is a widely available flu vaccine every year, but until very recently there hasn’t been a vaccine for covid, and one won’t be widely available for a while yet?

How? How do some people forget this in every single argument, and present the “but flu!!” line again and again like it’s a massive gotcha?

Comparing a easily transmitted respiratory illness with a vaccine to one without is like comparing a panda to a tiger. Yes they’re both big fuckers that’ll hurt if they fall on you, and both can kill you, but only one of them is going to walk away with your respiratory system in its mouth.

Yes, when there is a widely available coronavirus vaccine it will be a lot less scary and life will return to normal. But until then, let’s not lick the sodding tigers.

Bold fail. The first paragraph is from Flippingnightmare

And to clarify for the pedants:
At this point in time only one of them is more likely to walk away with your respiratory system in its mouth due to the lack of a vaccine

@toocold54

You sound jealous that I have a good job that pays well and is important to society and thus highly valued, but the reality is not everyone can be a doctor.

All children should be in school being taught by teachers who are being paid to teach them face to face.

You sound like you’re about 12.

The schools were closed - teachers couldn’t teach.

Your children were in school alongside cleaners and shop workers - jobs that are often underpaid and undervalued.

The children in school were at more of an advantage than those who were at home but it would nor be fair for them to be given preferential treatment due the job their parents do or whether they have a social worker or not.

Would it be so terrible if the kids at school were taught? When the kids go back, old ground is gone over anyway - my reception kid can read, do basic maths etc - all taught at preschool. In reception they have counted to ten and are doing letter sounds. The teacher goes over what the bottom and middle of the class need to learn, so will have more time to focus on kids that haven't had the same advantages at home/school as some will already "know" stuff. Schools being open in the way they are will cripple the nhs.

Tinkering round the edges has led us to where we are now. What do you think is going to happen in those areas in T4 that have primaries open? They will close at some point, but with a bigger impact on health, education and economy as the spread has been allowed to get even bigger. At least with planned home learning, it's far from ideal, but better than isolations. Schools being open are screwing the economy more! A week off school in October could have been more effective than the costly longer November lockdown. Pissing around until numbers get so high costs more in every way, just a bit later. More people will die from covid if hospitals turn them away. More people will die from other things too. No one wants schools to shut but they were opened in an unsafe way, only very close contacts were isolated, narrow list of testing symptoms, the schools are open so they may as well mix outside mentality...now we are here. I'm in london - they are not even closing schools in all boroughs - it is bonkers. We are all fed up. It is shit. It needs to happen though.

My DD's Primary is to close to most DC. I have to say I've not seen any of the behaviour described by people on here. Everyone is wearing masks (obvs except excempt few) on the approach to school. We drop at the gate. The road is closed at school run time so we can spread out and staggered drop off times. At pick-up we walk into the back playground so we have more room to spread out and everyone wears masks. The only issue we have is that as a 5 form entry school with the best will in the world we can't stay SD'd at all times. But everyone is doing their best.

Our school has had 2 classes having to isolate since September, there were no further positives after the case that closed them so no spread. My own ds sat next to someone who tested positive and didn't get it. Based on that I dont think it spreads that much in primary kids but I guess the new variant is different.
However
I really don't want schools to shut.
Ds1 struggled in lockdown 1, trying to homeschool him was awful and he is normally happy, bright and very engaged with school. Ds2 is now in reception, he had 1 full term of nursery before lockdown. I don't want him disrupted again. He had made friends in nursery he had to remake them and regain his confidence last term and that's before looking at phonics etc.
When school reopened last time it was nearly 50% full with keyworker children. I get it, I understand the need, but still I don't think it should be controversial to say that the right to attend school should not be based on a parents job.

How about looking at the wider picture, @katienana, rather than just your own circumstances?

I think that the major mistake was not to suspend fines for this term and they could say you don't need to deregister if you plan to just home educate until Easter. Then those who would prefer to have them at home can. Except in areas of high transmission those who want them in school can. The classroom will have fewer children so easier to socially distance. Many countries do not have fines even in non covid times yet their schools aren't falling apart because a few children are off school. It would though mean there are fewer posts on MN about school opening so we would have to chat about something else.

All this talk of primary children’s mental health is driving me crazy. Out of a class of 36 we had none with any noticeable issues. All returned fine and apart from some issues with daily routine- not snacking when they wanted and needing to be taught the basics of how to use hand soap- the kids were fine.

This is the picture everywhere tbh. And no I don’t have ‘evidence’ because it’s far too soon to know in detail but we do know that time at home is fine for most kids. And yes, the pandemic itself is affecting kids’ mental health and that’s largely down to how parents deal with it or whether they’ve lost loved ones.

Would it be so terrible if the kids at school were taught?

But only like 10% of the pupils were in so there would be no point/unfair teaching to just those.
It would also mean hundreds of parents trying to keep their DCs in school if they think those are being taught and not theirs.

It is also unrealistic to think every teacher can teach every subject eg a maths teacher can’t teach Spanish and in schools there were random staff members for each group of pupils so it wasn’t like in normal times when they have separate teachers throughout the day.

The work that was set, if done, would have furthered their education in some way and would have been similar to what they were meant to be doing in class that day anyway. I set my classes work following on each time and gave them help sheets/website links so they can research the info if needed. But each time they would have learnt new ideas.

The trouble is is that some kids didn’t do it so are now behind and those are usually the ones that were already behind and the ones that did do the work will be recapping at the end of the year it so will allow them to achieve greater than those who didn’t do it/make much effort in the first place.

I think that the major mistake was not to suspend fines for this term and they could say you don't need to deregister if you plan to just home educate until Easter.

I agree.
I know many parents would be happy to keep their children off and have the time/resources to be able to do their studies from home which would free up space in schools to help with social distancing etc.

sortmylifeoutplease

I completely agree.

@Agoodbriskwalk

All this talk of primary children’s mental health is driving me crazy. Out of a class of 36 we had none with any noticeable issues. All returned fine and apart from some issues with daily routine- not snacking when they wanted and needing to be taught the basics of how to use hand soap- the kids were fine.

This is the picture everywhere tbh. And no I don’t have ‘evidence’ because it’s far too soon to know in detail but we do know that time at home is fine for most kids. And yes, the pandemic itself is affecting kids’ mental health and that’s largely down to how parents deal with it or whether they’ve lost loved ones.

I agree. I think the way parents handle uncertainty and stress is the main predictor of how children cope. Our school community are a sturdy lot, no issues have come to light apart from similar to the above.