Sending London patients to Yorkshire

[DeRigueurMortis]

It's been reported that due to capacity issues in London there is a proposal to send patients to Yorkshire.

London has more beds per capita than anywhere else in the country.

The nightingales have been dismantled.

In Yorkshire the rates have been high but (depending on north/south/east/west) brought into control though harsh lockdown. Those in tier 2 have been buggered by being inundated by Covid tourism and will be tier 3/4.

So Yorkshire is on the verge of it's own disaster with less beds per person than London and being overwhelmed by London cases before the local community can get a bed in their hospital.

Is it right that this should happen?

Really? If it were any other part of the country involved than London, would people be fussing about it?

I fully understand the concern - if you fill up hospitals in Yorkshire, what happens to people of cases rise there. But if hospitals in one part of the country are full, but others have capacity, we cannot just abandon people to die in order to keep a relatively high percentage of beds empty. The NHS is a national resource, patients being moved around is standard practice.

...and when those get filled your loved one will be flown to Germany!

That's what happens. Get your head around it! It's going to be the case because our Government were to weak to cancel Christmas and New Year!

@LegoPandemic

They had bloody better not! We’ve been under restrictions since August and hospitals have had a terrible time. Our numbers have dropped for now, let staff recover before the new strain inevitably finds its way here.

Selfish much? Would you think the same if your loved ones were sick and there were no beds locally? You would want them to be taken to where they could be treated surely? The NHS is for the whole country, nit just area specific, and people should be treated wherever there is space.

@LemonSquirtInTheEyeOfLife

What I mean is, it's a hellish long way to send such ill patients. Although 100km is much worse! Is Yorkshire really the closest they can find? Why are they keeping the Nightingale hospitals "on standby" but sending patients halfway up the country? Isn't that what the Nightingale hospitals were for, London overflow of cases, & general centralisation of care? If they can't be staffed or equipped, why are they keeping them "on standby"?

@Flaxmeadow - it is a big county but AFAIK there's not many big hospitals in North Yorkshire. I think maybe three at the most? Most of them are in West & South Yorkshire, that's where most of the big towns & cities are. Much less in North Yorkshire.

There is a Nightingale hospital in Harrogate, North Yorkshire

@covetingthepreciousthings

Is the nightingale in Harrogate being dismantled or is this what they mean by this plan?

No it's up & running. Drove past yesterday. Live in Harrogate

@DeRigueurMortis

There are some "big" hospitals in Yorkshire as I've googled it.

Mainly in Leeds - the rest are very much regional facilities.

It's an ethical dilemma.

I also think it's very different from sending patients to hospitals for specialist treatment . It's

Hence the post.

NHS Nightingale in Harrogate is open and is huge

This situation really is bringing out the worst in people. No one owns the beds local to them, if someone is dying and a bed is free elsewhere then they can be moved.
It happens all the time in the NHS regardless of covid.

Harrogate’s nightingale may be huge but would they have the staff to man it? Nope.

But I agree hospital beds should be assigned on a first come first served basis.

I think the issue is, there are other places in the country. No one is saying don’t do this, but why Yorkshire, why not somewhere closer, or even somewhere like Liverpool what seems to have controlled things.
A lot of South and West Yorkshire are on the balance itself- numbers have been wavering weekly, with near on capacity at times, and thats without the rapid testing being set up (as promised, but appears to have disappeared.....) and once things spiral again, where do patients then go?
So yeah, please send people to other areas of beds are needed, but use some bloody logic as to where.

@Underadesk your post implies that the people making the decision don't apply logic!

The decision will be made by ITU consultants based on clinical need. Is that not logical?

This is how hospitals have worked for a long time. It's sensible to use free beds, wherever they are. I'm not really sure what the issue is?

Sheffield also has two major hospitals.

My immediate thought was how terrible for the patients and families if the patient gets moved so far away from home, but I agree with other posters in that they need to be treated somewhere.

I appreciate that having visitors etc is restricted but I'd be heartbroken to think of my loved one so far away while critically ill.

It is a dilemma and incredibly sad.

I think the logic I was thinking of is more that they should be going to areas where they are still tier two/ at the lower end of tier three, not areas verging on tier four. If numbers are low enough to warrant people still going out to restaurants etc, then they must have free beds......
I can’t stress enough that yorkshire is wobbly again, and thats on top of high restrictions for so long. London and the south east didn’t help the spread by being in tier two for so long and whilst thats no one’s fault but politicians, it really hasn’t helped. And again, totally illogical to throw really sick people in an area that has barely recovered. Other areas need to take the weight too- the hospital staff I know have worked so hard the past few months round s&e yorkshire and will do it again, but why are they the fall out?

Wouldn't it be better to set the nightingale hospitals in London back up again? Did they not use them?

Here in Leeds, we seem to have mostly escaped the new strain, so it seems to be madness to be deliberately bringing it here.

After being in higher restrictions for months we seem to be finally getting on top of it, but now it's out of control in London it seems they want to inflict their troubles on us and when it does, we'll be left high and dry with a shortage of beds and tier 4/5 restrictions because London is given favourable treatment yet again.

Plus there's the detriment of transporting very ill people hundreds of miles away on them, their relatives and the ambulance resources required to move them.

I'm sure if there were beds closer than Yorkshire they'd be sending patients there. Moving ICU patients is a huge logistical faff, very staffing/resource-intensive (this sort of transfer will take out an ambulance + crew, an ICU doctor and nurse for pretty much an entire day's work, for ONE patient). It's only done as a last resort. They're not going for a jolly to see the Dales.

The local shops for local people attitudes on this thread are a disgrace. Perhaps many of the london hospitals who do specialist cancer treatments for the whole of the uk, or gt ormond st should be for London only?

What if Yorkshire never need them and they're just sat empty while people down south suffer??

I'm in Yorkshire but don't think I have a right to any bed simply because of geography

Before Christmas, the ambulance service in Northern Ireland was under severe strain, so they called in assistance from Republic of Ireland's ambulance service as all their own ambulances were tied up in queues outside hospitals. There were a couple of articles about it at the time. There is massive disparity between NI and RoI figures for COVID. I presume the NHS paid Ireland for the service, though I'm not 100% sure. The NHS can't seem to cope with its population figures. The UK is very densely populated, though I don't think NI has a high population. I was very surprised to hear about Ireland having to help out as we're always told that our NHS is a superior service to most of the EU (with the exception of Germany, Switzerland and maybe some of the Nordic countries).

While the bed capacity per 100k in London may be higher than other areas, the covid rate per 100k in London is 10 times that of other parts of England/Scotland at the moment. There's a thread on here asking people what the rate is in their areas. Some parts of London have over 1000/100k whereas other areas have figures in double digits.

London is constantly trying to 'export' for want of a better word, its needs. A very good example is housing. Councils are trying to relocate Londoners in need of housing to areas in the North of England.

ITUs and bed managers won't arbitrarily overlook a closer bed. This will be the best available decision in a difficult time.

If it's any comfort it may well swing the other way before the pandemic is over.

Just some info to back up previous post.

Article about ambulances.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55345151

Northern Ireland
Total cases
68,762
+1,566 new cases yesterday
Population - 1.8 million

Republic of Ireland
Total cases
88,439
+1,545 new cases yesterday
Population - 5 million

Information on Housing outside London

The Homefinder Scheme - This is available to existing Council tenants and homeless applicants who may be interested in moving to permanent Council or Housing Association homes further away. Homes available through this scheme are a long distance from London. However, there are many hundreds of good quality empty permanent Housing Association & Council properties (1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 bedroom homes) available through this scheme in places such as Birmingham, Carlisle, Cheshire, Gateshead, Lancashire, Leicester, Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Plymouth, Scotland, Sheffield, South Shields, Wakefield, and many other areas outside of London. Moves via this Scheme could potentially happen within a number of months as opposed to waiting many years

Everyone deserves a chance to live. End of

The London nightingale hasn’t been dismantled - BBC ran an article yesterday with pix, and reference to recent email. It’s on standby

Problem is staffing

Patients are being sent to nearest place with staff capacity

Nightingales cannot currently be staffed for critical Covid care.

Could they instead by staffed for other Covid care - maybe those well on route to recovery but who cannot be safely discharged, who still need staff, but not the numbers (or range of specialties) for higher levels of care?

@KarmaNoMore

Harrogate’s nightingale may be huge but would they have the staff to man it? Nope.

But I agree hospital beds should be assigned on a first come first served basis.

Er, yep. They already have

Incidentally, who over the age of 10 says "Nope"

People have to cooperate. I think Northerners are rightfully angry that they were under very restrictive measures for a long time before London was. Now that London is in crisis, I suppose they resent us exporting our problem up to them. I can see their point I suppose. There does seem to be a particular dislike for Londoners outside of London. Northern Englanders don't seem to identify very well with Londoners. I suppose if people didn't keep moving here, we'd still just be a merry band of Cockneys!!