Sending London patients to Yorkshire

[DeRigueurMortis]

It's been reported that due to capacity issues in London there is a proposal to send patients to Yorkshire.

London has more beds per capita than anywhere else in the country.

The nightingales have been dismantled.

In Yorkshire the rates have been high but (depending on north/south/east/west) brought into control though harsh lockdown. Those in tier 2 have been buggered by being inundated by Covid tourism and will be tier 3/4.

So Yorkshire is on the verge of it's own disaster with less beds per person than London and being overwhelmed by London cases before the local community can get a bed in their hospital.

Is it right that this should happen?

@MinesAPintofTea No it's not fair and must be frustrating and annoying especially in a lower tier area. Nothing about this virus is fair, the whole situation is hideous for the whole country. I hope the vaccine news means we all get out of this mess as quickly as possible.

@McFarts

“The tiered system needs abandoning, no way can northern cities continue to have people flocking to shopping centre's as they are atm. Its madness!. That's not the fault of the general public mind! nor is it the fault of people in London/SE going out for meals, when they were allowed to do so! It's the shower of shit we have running the country.”

So what you are saying is that those in the higher teirs did not have the common sense to realise why they were in a higher teir and just left to do non essential shopping just because they “could “:?

And the fact they they knew they could be spreading the virus because they were in a high risk area is the fault of the government ? Even though they spelt it out quite clearly ?

If that is what you are saying then the majority of the British public are in your eyes morons who need to be told what to do at every step of the way and have it enforced ?

@Burpeesshmurpees

I would add this was some years ago but I am sure it still goes on .

[quote MessAllOver]@HermioneWeasley. That is just not true. London, the South East and the East of England all run net fiscal surpluses. All other areas of the UK, including Yorkshire, have net fiscal deficits.

London has the highest net fiscal surplus per head (£3,905 in 2018). So London part-funds the rest of the country. Yorkshire is part-funded by the rest of the country.[/quote]

But that is a reflection of the many decades of lack of investment in the North is it not?

@MoltenLasagne

I think it’s quite clear that the government have not been blaming the public. They have said the new mutation is much more easily spread and anyway we were only minimising risk by the guidance never eliminating it . Probably the distance of 2m and masks is just not enough now .

There is no accounting though for those who are stupid enough to want to go to crowded shops for unnecessary purchases .

@MiddleClassMother I had to have my maternity care at a hospital 40 miles away in the next county as not one hospital in the county that I live in has the specialist scanning equipment that I needed. I live in Essex. I could have gone to London but as I live in an area with no train line that would have meant a three hour round trip. Even my PIL who live in Herts next to the M25 (they are in London once they cross over the M25) are now sent to the next county (Essex) for A and E as the hospital nearest to then in North London has their A and E closed. Hospitals are not “ten a penny” in the London Metropolitan area.

Nightingale and Seacole require staff. Highly trained staff. We don't have them. That is part of the problem. They are not designed to accommodate 'ordinary' patients.
The Nightingale and Seacole are only suitable for sedated and ventilated patients not for high numbers now needing NIV. Oxygen would still be an issue.
Most hospitals in south have increased capacity hugely. Hospitals going from their usual 12 critical care beds to over 60. They don't have more space or staff.

Patients have always been transferred between sites for clinical reasons. That hasn't changed.
Priority is getting people appropriate care based on need rather than geography. Geography is a consideration but not the biggest one.

The huge number of military at Catterick are not intensivists, anaesthetists,respiratory consultants nor critical care trained nurses. You can't put an army chef in an operating theatre. Most nurses cannot safely look after ventilated patients. Most doctors cannot safely look after ventilated patients. Most ambulance crews cannot safely transport ventilated patients.

It is essential that resources are used to maximum benefit. That includes staff resources. It means moving nonCovid19 emergency patients to hospitals where they will be seen rather than kept in the back of an ambulance for 8 hours.

It means persuading people to only turn up if they have very serious conditions that require emergency treatment. It means cancelling non emergency work to allow staff breaks and to move staff to care for emergency patients in the corridors.

[quote Unsure33]@McFarts

“The tiered system needs abandoning, no way can northern cities continue to have people flocking to shopping centre's as they are atm. Its madness!. That's not the fault of the general public mind! nor is it the fault of people in London/SE going out for meals, when they were allowed to do so! It's the shower of shit we have running the country.”

So what you are saying is that those in the higher teirs did not have the common sense to realise why they were in a higher teir and just left to do non essential shopping just because they “could “:?

And the fact they they knew they could be spreading the virus because they were in a high risk area is the fault of the government ? Even though they spelt it out quite clearly ?

If that is what you are saying then the majority of the British public are in your eyes morons who need to be told what to do at every step of the way and have it enforced ?[/quote]
@Unsure33

No that isnt what im saying at all, and if you read my other posts on this thread you would see that.

I am saying that given the current situation in some of southern hospitals, the NHS will need to pool their resources and use bed/care capacity where its available. Tier 3 area's have none essential shops open as normal. 11 thousand people were at a local shopping centre yesterday! the northern city hospitals wont have any capacity for much longer with "some" people on family outings at a shopping centre will they? but to be frank, yes some people do need it enforced exactly what they can and cannot do. A national approach is now needed imo.

@HermioneWeasley
Yorkshire, and many areas, did not need the first national lockdown based on our numbers and hospital capacity- our ICUs had never been so quiet That’s strange, my cousin working in the NHS in Yorkshire said their particular part of Yorkshire struggled even during the first lockdown. Another relative In Yorkshire died of Covid, the only person in my family to have had it yet. The hospital they were in was also overwhelmed. This was back in April.

After the second lockdown it was obvious that London/SE numbers were rising and needed to be in tighter restrictions, but no, they were kept in tier 2 and then had to be moved from 3 to 4 within days. So yes, the north has been sacrificed to save London No it has not! Having tracked the figures to see how it is in my postcode area in the central south of England, vs where my family in Yorkshire live, it was only in the 2nd week in December that our numbers rose higher than their’s. And yet, in spite of having one of the lowest areas for Covid numbers in the country (which are still relatively low, and falling this week,) we went into Tier 4 for Christmas meaning my family were not able to come for Christmas as planned.

The fact is that in the North and in the South, there are some areas that have high and rapidly rising rates, and some that have low. And in order for some containment of the virus to happen entire areas have to be put into stricter measures. There are also people acting like dickheads in both the north and south. I remember back in the early days going to our local supermarket once a week wearing a mask and the majority of shoppers having a mask on, and then visiting my dying father up north and being astonished that people were still ‘popping to the shops’ on a daily basis and not wearing masks. The press show photos of people crammed into beer gardens in London when outdoor eating and drinking was allowed, but they also showed students partying in the streets in Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester - these things sell newspapers!

The whole ‘outraged North’ attitude is beginning to wear thin with me. I consider myself a Northerner, having been born in Yorkshire and living up north for over a quarter of a century, but I’m embarrassed that my fellow men and women can whine about the rest of the UK so unkindly and so vociferously. The majority of people in the highest Covid areas are staying at home, doing their best and living their lives much the same way everyone is. I’m appalled that some posters here cannot see that, even when they are told it again and again.

To anyone who thinks ‘the south deserve it and no, they can’t have our hospital beds’ go and take a long hard look at yourself and try and work it when it was you became such a cold hearted individual.

But that is a reflection of the many decades of lack of investment in the North is it not?

There is a North-South divide in terms of investment and it is one of the worst in the world. I completely agree that successive governments have failed to invest in the North and that narrowing the gap is a matter of priority. However, the wealth gap isn't only due to the failure to invest in the North but also London's outstanding success as a global financial centre.

In any case, it doesn't really matter - we are one country. We have national taxation and a national health service.

What a bloody awful thread.

And what sort of life do people think London lived in during tier 2 that warrants Londoners being left to die rather than transferred to other areas?

London was ravaged in the first wave. We didn't get away with anything. And now London is being ravaged again. How many times do people want London to suffer before they get rid of the massive chips on their shoulders?

@JayAlfredPrufrock

I repeat, the reason folk are pissed off is that they’ve been in a high level of lockdown all through the summer and autumn. We’ve been like Dickensian characters with our noses pressed up against the windows of the South whilst they feasted and made merry. The number of posts and letters I’ve read about Northerners not abiding by the rules and that’s what they had high levels of COVID and more stringent lockdown.

It was a load of ignorant, factually incorrect tripe the first time you bleated it, and remains so now.

Kindest regards,
A Northerner Down South

'That's what stings about hospital capacity being used up.'

God give me strength.

Covid is hitting those is lower socio-economic groups much harder than the better off, regardless of geography.

So it may make you feel better to know that, statistically speaking, there is less chance of your hospital beds being tied up by a wealthy Londoner with a second home. More likely to be someone in poor health living in a back garden slum, HMO or overcrowded flat...

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/17/poor-housing-linked-high-covid-19-death-rate-london-borough-brent

@JayAlfredPrufrock "We’ve been like Dickensian characters with our noses pressed up against the windows of the South whilst they feasted and made merry." Oh, wow! I missed this little nugget! It is rare I feel the need to tell someone directly to their face to wind their neck right in, but right now, this takes the biscuit! So here, my first ever . According to my poor Dickensian northern mother, she only goes to the supermarket, the diy shops, B&M Bargains, the local shopping centre (but she walks through it as fast as she can,) the pub to sit outside at the bus stop with her mates because you can buy beer if you take it away, the gym, another relative's house for a support bubble, her mates for a walk, but only one at a time because them's the rules, and up and down her street with the neighbours chasing her chickens that have escaped (netting avoiding acknowledging the fact that her birds should also be in birdy lockdown due to an Avian Flu epidemic.) And that was just yesterday. Whereas us southerners have been gallivanting around all over the place to erm, erm, erm, places we can gallivant in.

If it helps, I am currently working my way through a flipping massive turkey that I bought to share with my family but due to Tier 4 restrictions was not able to have a family Christmas. It was so enormous though, bigger than I would have needed even if my family had been able to come, because us kind southerners sent 10000 of our smaller turkeys up north because a lot of turkeys were culled because of the avian flu outbreak. So don't say southerners never did anything for the north

You were put in Tier 4 just before Christmas. And my how you all moaned.

We have not been able to go out anywhere other than essential shops since August.

So no, I won’t wind my heck in.

@JayAlfredPrufrock

You were put in Tier 4 just before Christmas. And my how you all moaned.

We have not been able to go out anywhere other than essential shops since August.

So no, I won’t wind my heck in.

Did non-essential shops like clothes shops etc not open in your area? I didn’t know they had remained shut in some areas since August, where do you live?

A few people on here moaned, I don’t personally know anyone who moaned about tier 4 restrictions.

You were put in Tier 4 just before Christmas. And my how you all moaned.

Do you think people were moaning because they couldn't go to Primark or because they couldn't see their families at Christmas which for some was the first time in months.

So no, I won’t wind my heck in

At least pull it out of your arse

Does anyone have any insight into the logistics of being able to transfer COVID cases such long distances and in enough numbers to relive the pressure on London hospitals?

I suppose I'm asking how feasible such a proposal is and the impact it would have on protecting the NHS at a national level.

Here we go again! We all had so much say in the tiers we were put in didnt we?? but let's rip Londoners down with bitterness! Grow up ffs.

FFS keep them down there. The NW has had far more restrictions than London, why should we have them up here. Disgusting, they have more bloody hospitals than the North.

@TragedyHands

FFS keep them down there. The NW has had far more restrictions than London, why should we have them up here. Disgusting, they have more bloody hospitals than the North.

And the hospitals are full. So you're actually saying let them die, because the north was put into a tier Londoners had no say in.

@TragedyHands

FFS keep them down there. The NW has had far more restrictions than London, why should we have them up here. Disgusting, they have more bloody hospitals than the North.

I take it if you needed care you would rather go without if a hospital bed was not available in your local area.

FFS keep them down there. The NW has had far more restrictions than London, why should we have them up here. Disgusting, they have more bloody hospitals than the North.

With a much larger population to serve. We move people around hospitals to wherever there is space. We always have. Just because a hospital is located in one particular area does not mean that it is only for the people of that area. It's simply where it is located. The hospital's in the UK are for the people who live in the UK, regardless of where they may live.