Sending London patients to Yorkshire

[DeRigueurMortis]

It's been reported that due to capacity issues in London there is a proposal to send patients to Yorkshire.

London has more beds per capita than anywhere else in the country.

The nightingales have been dismantled.

In Yorkshire the rates have been high but (depending on north/south/east/west) brought into control though harsh lockdown. Those in tier 2 have been buggered by being inundated by Covid tourism and will be tier 3/4.

So Yorkshire is on the verge of it's own disaster with less beds per person than London and being overwhelmed by London cases before the local community can get a bed in their hospital.

Is it right that this should happen?

I live within 5 minutes walk of a massive teaching hospital. I vote that you may only get beds within a 1 mile radius of your home. It would be lovely and quiet at the hospitals then.

[quote Fieldofyellowflowers]@ThelmaNotLouise

There is a difference between people getting specialist cancer treatment and treatment at Great Ormond Street and people arriving in droves with a virus. A big difference. [/quote]
Droves? Have you read the article this post is based on? Requests have been made for a small number of patients to be moved. They haven't been moved yet. You are talking bollocks with your droves.

Do we even know it's Covid patients they want to move? Isn't it more likely that they'll move people in long term critical conditions, such as in comas, or recovering from major surgery, than risk moving infected patients?

No, we weren't. The media glorifying an old man who walked a bit does not make a united nation, it makes a scared nation looking for a bit of joy. The division was still there, just painted over with a good story

Yes we were scared, and theres no shame in admitting it, but I disagree that we weren't united. We did have unity and it might have been a bit cheesy that we clapped for the NHS and cheered Capt Tom (from Yorkshire incidentally), but we didnt care about that. We did it for our elderly, vulnerble and for our confused children. It cheered many people up. Raised spirits. Stop being such a prig about it.

As ObliviouslyIgnorant points out though, the tier system might have made us feel divided, as if we were no longer in it together. Up North we haven't been to the pub since March, or at least we only had a few weeks of it, around the Sunak meal deal thingy, but then straight back into lockdown. I don't blame Gov't though because the tier system was tried across Europe but it didn't keep us all in the same boat

@ThelmaNotLouise

Do we even know it's Covid patients they want to move? Isn't it more likely that they'll move people in long term critical conditions, such as in comas, or recovering from major surgery, than risk moving infected patients?

I would have thought the same.

@EttaG

So Tier 3 areas took measures to protect their hospitals and reduce Covid cases. They gave up going to the pub and restaurants. No Christmas parties. No pantos. They stayed at home for weeks. Meanwhile people from Tier 2 areas continued swanning around drinking and enjoying themselves. Now they have high cases and oops, they need the beds that Tier 3 areas worked so hard to protect for themselves. It’s shocking.

What’s the point of higher tiers behaving themselves if lower tiers are just going to spread the virus and then pinch their beds? Tier 2 (now Tier 4) people got themselves into this situation so they should deal with it themselves. Not impose the consequences of their bad behaviour on others.

Someone I know in Cleckheaton went to a panto in Leeds. They also went to the gym everyday it was open, he has also been to various outdoor attractions and socialised with two other households on christmas day.

How do you personally know what all individuals in tier 2 and tier 3 were doing?

It's been reported that due to capacity issues in London there is a proposal to send patients to Yorkshire

Any authoritative source for this happening beyond the normal common sense practice of area 1 looking for capacity in area 2 in a crisis?

This has always been the case in the health service, especially for ITU and neonatal beds. Why would you not do this?

As others say, focus your ire on the general mismanagement at government level rather than engage in distraction by division.

@ThelmaNotLouise @SimonJT

Imagine the roles being reversed. There are 53000 new cases a day. A new variant is ravaging Yorkshire. The Yorkshire hospitals are full and this is before the aftermath of xmas has hit. The London hospitals are not full but that is not to say that they aren't struggling. Cases are rising in your area. You know that the new variant hasn't even hit you yet. Then you find out that people from Yorkshire are going to be sent to London hospitals. You don't know what is going to happen once all the London hospitals are full. Where will you be sent if you need an ICU bed? Or where will your family be sent if they need treatment? You realise that the bed shortage situation is being taken out of the North and handed to the South on a plate. You might not be set against northern patients coming down to London, but you won't be delighted.

I'm not against southern people getting treatment in Northern hospitals, it is the only option. But it is not a long term solution. If the government had taken the NHS needs for more funding and help etc seriously over recent years we'd probably be in a better position.

Can someone please explain to me the risk of moving a covid patient- assuming it is these patients - across tiers?

Call me naive but the staff will already have all been exposed and they ain't gonna be going down the pub and gyms are they ?

@ThelmaNotLouise

It probably will be droves once the xmas aftermath hits.

[quote Fieldofyellowflowers]**@ThelmaNotLouise* @SimonJT*

Imagine the roles being reversed. There are 53000 new cases a day. A new variant is ravaging Yorkshire. The Yorkshire hospitals are full and this is before the aftermath of xmas has hit. The London hospitals are not full but that is not to say that they aren't struggling. Cases are rising in your area. You know that the new variant hasn't even hit you yet. Then you find out that people from Yorkshire are going to be sent to London hospitals. You don't know what is going to happen once all the London hospitals are full. Where will you be sent if you need an ICU bed? Or where will your family be sent if they need treatment? You realise that the bed shortage situation is being taken out of the North and handed to the South on a plate. You might not be set against northern patients coming down to London, but you won't be delighted.

I'm not against southern people getting treatment in Northern hospitals, it is the only option. But it is not a long term solution. If the government had taken the NHS needs for more funding and help etc seriously over recent years we'd probably be in a better position.[/quote]
I would be very much delighted that people were receiving the medical care they need. I’ve been transferred as an ICU patient, it isn’t new, unusual or scary.

Do do realise the beds don’t belong to the ‘north’ or ‘south’ they aren’t the toys of spoiled children.

No we should let the dirty Londoners die in case someone more deserving needs the bed instead. FFS.

@Tinacollada

Can someone please explain to me the risk of moving a covid patient- assuming it is these patients - across tiers?

Call me naive but the staff will already have all been exposed and they ain't gonna be going down the pub and gyms are they ?

They may spread their evil southern ways!

@ObliviouslyIgnorant

We weren't terribly happy when Macron closed his border to the UK. We want it both ways it seems. We can't even unite within England. It's not surprising that we left the EU. 'The truth will always out' as they say. I think some of the attitudes displayed on here explain the mentality that resulted in the vote for Brexit. PS, London voted to remain.

I agree that the views on here about 'local hospitals for local people' are likely to ally with pro-Brexit views.

But again I say - stop putting all the people in geographical regions into simplistic clumps. 40% of Londoners, 1.5m people, voted leave.

[quote Fieldofyellowflowers]**@ThelmaNotLouise* @SimonJT*

Imagine the roles being reversed. There are 53000 new cases a day. A new variant is ravaging Yorkshire. The Yorkshire hospitals are full and this is before the aftermath of xmas has hit. The London hospitals are not full but that is not to say that they aren't struggling. Cases are rising in your area. You know that the new variant hasn't even hit you yet. Then you find out that people from Yorkshire are going to be sent to London hospitals. You don't know what is going to happen once all the London hospitals are full. Where will you be sent if you need an ICU bed? Or where will your family be sent if they need treatment? You realise that the bed shortage situation is being taken out of the North and handed to the South on a plate. You might not be set against northern patients coming down to London, but you won't be delighted.

I'm not against southern people getting treatment in Northern hospitals, it is the only option. But it is not a long term solution. If the government had taken the NHS needs for more funding and help etc seriously over recent years we'd probably be in a better position.[/quote]
No, it's not a long term solution, but I absolutely wouldn't begrudge anyone getting treatment wherever there is capacity and no one I know in London would begrudge people from other areas coming to our hospitals, because unlike other areas we welcome those in need with open arms, hence why London is one of the most diverse cities in the world. I certainly wouldn't start a thread encouraging Londoners to tell everyone from the north to go fuck themselves.

@Tinacollada

Can someone please explain to me the risk of moving a covid patient- assuming it is these patients - across tiers?

Call me naive but the staff will already have all been exposed and they ain't gonna be going down the pub and gyms are they ?

The risk is to the patient being transferred and the trust who loses the clinicians for a retrieval team.

Any authoritative source for this happening

This is the source. HSJ

www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/london-critical-care-patients-could-be-sent-to-yorkshire-as-capitals-icus-top-100pc-occupancy/7029237.article

Tiers did not ‘take measures to protect their hospitals. The trusts themselves have very little ability to so do.

Decisions about capacity, increasing surge beds, deployment of military care assistants, transfers etc are all made by NHSE working with local clinicians and area leads to determine how best to accommodate higher demand.

No, it’s not a long term solution and was never intended to be. Repatriation will also be a logistical nightmare.
It is about ensuring people who need hospital care receive it. It is about clinical risk.

Should obese patients, or smokers or alcoholics be denied treatment?

Good point. I can tell you first hand, that alcoholics are in fact being denied treatment. My DM who I mentioned earlier in the thread is an alcoholic, and the psychiatrist wanted to admit her for 5 days detoxification as she attempted suicide. She was sent home as there are no beds. She wasn't offered a bed in Yorkshire. We can't look after her unfortunately as there are 4 of us in a 2 bed, and neither can the NHS. Alcoholics are the first to be thrown under the bus, followed closely by those with mental illness. She is a difficult person to deal with at the moment, but don't be deluded that alcoholics get treatment. It's not the first time that she has been left to rot. She was a lovely woman for many years, then had an accident, had to leave her job and became reliant on alcohol for pain relief. Now she seems suicidal all the time, greatly increased when she's drinking. We may well lose her, but there's nothing that we can do.

Should obese patients, or smokers or alcoholics be denied treatment.

What a vile Priti Patel type idea. Nye Bevan would be turning in his grave. Bet this was a Brexit voter who has very little comprehension of the complexities of a modern society.

Should we also deny people in road traffic accidents, with sporting injuries? What about sick children whose parents failed to vaccinate them? What about fat children or those with Prader Willis?

What about women who don’t have smears - should they have to forego cervical cancer treatment? Should JWs be booted out of hospitals for fear they might need a transfusion and refuse?
Is it all treatment we are refusing smokers and the fat or just Covid19 treatment?

1930s Germany here we come.