Any scientists around?? Worried

[catinablanket]

I've been reading about antibody dependent enhancement.

I know as a non science person it's probably a bad idea and I end up scaring myself maybe because I don't fully understand what I'm reading.

We've had COVID. There's a ECV member in our extended household. If it mutates enough, could a second infection be worse??

Is there any hint that COVID19 displays antibody dependent enhancement?? Do other coronaviruses??

I'd really appreciate some wisdom on this, bad or good.

It is certainly possible, but there is no evidence, yet:

www.newswise.com/coronavirus/the-claim-that-covid-19-vaccines-will-cause-more-severe-disease-through-antibody-dependent-enhancement-is-not-yet-supported

Although that link from early December 2020 is about vaccines and not those who have had COVID19 of course.

With a title like that you will attract lots of fake scientists, but I expect that you know that.

I am a scientist & haven't a clue what OP is talking about...

Ok, now I read Ghostof's link and my main comment is this:

Epidemiologists trust what they see repeatedly in whole live human beings, with data collected in ways that minimise confounders (bias). We don't trust hypothetical theoretical speculation. We don't like wasting time on theoretical speculation. At best, the speculating gives us ideas what to look for that might be happening in real live whole human beings.

That link is talking about "maybe problems". They are a grade or 2 above utter conspiracy theories, and about as real. Something to look for but without actual evidence it really happened, we don't believe in it.

hth.

@MedSchoolRat

Not sure how you don't know what I'm talking about. Antibody dependent enhancement happens with other viruses like dengue fever. I am concerned also because I read it happened with MERS and the original SARS.

Why ask this on a general forum?
You sound like you can gather information from science on the internet!

Yeah, if you need actual qualified scientific knowledge and explanation, I'd suggest a parenting website is probably not the best place to ask for it.

Scientist here - not in the vaccine field though.

The clinical trials of the approved vaccines have shown REDUCED levels of severe illness and hospitalisation. So no evidence of antibody dependent enhancement in the trials.

Participants in the trials will have been exposed to various virus variants in the community.

The vaccines being used target the S protein.

www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

Even scientists concerned about the possibility of antibody dependent enhancement say...

"vaccines that elicit neutralizing antibodies against the S protein reliably protect animals from SARS-CoV challenge without evidence of enhancement of infection or disease. These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE."

Why ask this on a general forum?
You sound like you can gather information from science on the internet!

Yeah, if you need actual qualified scientific knowledge and explanation, I'd suggest a parenting website is probably not the best place to ask for it

I don't understand the sarky comments I'm getting here. I've noticed there are quite a few posters on MN with scientific knowledge and I've found their explanations useful before. That's why.

@bobbiester

The vaccines being used target the S protein.

www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

Even scientists concerned about the possibility of antibody dependent enhancement say...

"vaccines that elicit neutralizing antibodies against the S protein reliably protect animals from SARS-CoV challenge without evidence of enhancement of infection or disease. These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE."

Thanks for that.

I wasn't meaning about vaccines though. I presumed it would have been noticed in the trials if ADE occurred.

Do they know about ADE with previous natural infections yet?? We have had COVID I presume the 'old' strain. Could another exposure to it or to a sufficiently mutated strain cause worse illness the second time round??

My non scientific view would be that since ADE doesn't happen with other coronaviruses, the ones in common circulation as colds, why should it happen with this one? Dengue fever is caused by a completely different type of virus. Most viruses don't appear to behave in that way, from my everyday knowledge of viruses - you don't get sicker every time you get flu or norovirus or a cold. But I am emphatically not a scientist.

It is just something that the anti-vaxxers are spouting

Do they know about ADE with previous natural infections yet??

An over-active immune response (cytokine storm) is thought to be associated with more severe illness when people get COVID-19 for the first time. In theory - this could be due to ADE arising from cross-reactivity with previous coronaviruses that circulate in human populations (OC43, 229E, and NL63). i.e. virus that are similar, but not so similar to SARS-CoV-2 that existing antibodies immediately suppress COVID-19. This is just THEORY - not much evidence for it.

However, from the small number of documented cases where people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 a second time - there doesn't seem to be a trend towards it being a more severe illness second time around.

So it seems likely that a previous SARS-CoV-2 infection is less likely to trigger ADE with any new SARS-CoV-2 variant you encounter in the near than a previous OC43, 229E, or NL63 infection might.

Personally, if I was going to get new variant SARS-CoV-2 this week, I'd feel much more confident of a good outcome if I'd had old variant SARS-CoV-2 earlier in the year than if I'd never had it.

@Ontopofthesunset

My non scientific view would be that since ADE doesn't happen with other coronaviruses, the ones in common circulation as colds, why should it happen with this one? Dengue fever is caused by a completely different type of virus. Most viruses don't appear to behave in that way, from my everyday knowledge of viruses - you don't get sicker every time you get flu or norovirus or a cold. But I am emphatically not a scientist.

Yeah I was hoping the same thing. I read it happened with MERS and SARS though, and read about medical workers in Iran having worse second infections (could be viral load I guess).

@DiseaseX

It is just something that the anti-vaxxers are spouting

I'm not an anti vaxxer. I am really happy the vaccines were licenced.

@bobbiester

Do they know about ADE with previous natural infections yet??

An over-active immune response (cytokine storm) is thought to be associated with more severe illness when people get COVID-19 for the first time. In theory - this could be due to ADE arising from cross-reactivity with previous coronaviruses that circulate in human populations (OC43, 229E, and NL63). i.e. virus that are similar, but not so similar to SARS-CoV-2 that existing antibodies immediately suppress COVID-19. This is just THEORY - not much evidence for it.

However, from the small number of documented cases where people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 a second time - there doesn't seem to be a trend towards it being a more severe illness second time around.

So it seems likely that a previous SARS-CoV-2 infection is less likely to trigger ADE with any new SARS-CoV-2 variant you encounter in the near than a previous OC43, 229E, or NL63 infection might.

Personally, if I was going to get new variant SARS-CoV-2 this week, I'd feel much more confident of a good outcome if I'd had old variant SARS-CoV-2 earlier in the year than if I'd never had it.

Thanks @bobbiester.

My DC have had COVID in late November / early December. They were iller than they've ever been before and for longer (although not seriously iyswim) and the eldest is still having burning lungs, joint pains and really bad fatigue. The MIS-C reaction kids can get worries me, then reading about ADE another worry.

Thanks though, it does seem unlikely, as you say, the cases who've been reinfected haven't shown an ADE pattern.

The MIS-C reaction kids can get worries me

It's very rare - and again - personally if I was going to get COVID-19 this week I'd much rather be a kid than an adult!!

Honestly? Step away from the internet

@DecemberDiana
@toolatetooearly
@Brunt0n

Does any of you have any valuable information to contribute?

MN is plagued with posts asking for scientific information and those OPs are not getting this much vitriol

It's not just covid which is a concern what happens next time you get another illness and your body is attacking your own organs. We will just have to wait and see. It's a theory and could happen

@Lourdes12

It's not just covid which is a concern what happens next time you get another illness and your body is attacking your own organs. We will just have to wait and see. It's a theory and could happen

there is literally no scientific basis or real world evidence for this happening with SARS-COV-2. It's just more anti-vax bullshit people are spouting.

@catinablanket

there was no evidence of ADE in pre-clinical trials which is reassuring and the fact that billions of doses have been given to the general population, during a pandemic (i.e., so there's a high likelihood of being exposed to differing variants of coronavirus) and there hasn't been a single case of ADE is pretty compelling evidence it won't be an issue

this is a good blog post by some:

cut off too early!

this is a good blog post by someone in the field: blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/12/antibody-dependent-enhancement-and-the-coronavirus-vaccines

I know as a non science person it's probably a bad idea and I end up scaring myself maybe because I don't fully understand what I'm reading

^^. That

I haven't seen any studies suggesting evidence that this has happened with covid-19. This article might help to set your mind at rest: www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91648.

I did read just today that Influenza A can be particularly problematic for covid patients. So definitely get your flu jabs.