Is this to protect the NHS?

[suitsnot]

I assume this has been discussed before. I’ve not checked all the posts.

Does anyone have a clear answer on why this virus is taking precedence over quite literally every other illness and destroying the economy simultaneously? I don’t mean to sound facetious. Is it simply that the NHS will collapse if we don’t manage it? I can sort of see that but then again, so much else is collapsing that is causing slower health problems...mental health being key. I know of two suicides and lots more struggling mentally. Others who have not had treatment they should have had for ongoing health problems. A friend has ME and her health has declined terribly as she is not able to go to regular appointments. I know first hand that plenty of doctors have been quieter this year than ever - of course not including those in intensive care with high levels of patients. But generally across the board.

Is this concern about covid solely about making sure cases are managed so that the nhs isn’t overwhelmed? It seems like such a strange approach.

But if you can give yourself your own B12 injection then isn't that a good thing? People with diabetes do their own insulin injections. Post op people often do their own blood thinning injections these days.
Seems like a good innovation that should be kept to me.
Save GP and practice nurse appts for things that can't be done oneself and reduce risk of getting or spreading Covid.

The IFR is thought to be just over 1 %. If the NHS is near that point

1. IFR will increase. Previous suggestions were to 3-4%.
2. As the numbers infected surge, it becomes more difficult to protect the vulnerable
3. Shame to have a lot of death of elderly/ young vulnerable just before roll out.

but I have only had to learn how to give myself the B12 by necessity. I asked the receptionist if I could have some syringes to do it myself and they just laughed at me and said they DO NOT recommend that at all. I had to research what size to buy and order some off the internet. Then learn on Youtube how to do the injection. As far as the GP knows, I have been B12 -less now for over 10 months. They do not care

re staff and beds, cancer treatment is inevitably affected as these people would often be vulnerable to covid, that can't not be factored in.

There isn't a magical choice to go back to 2019 and sort of put anyone vulnerable in jail, that isn't an option people.

Not all gps are refusing to see anyone face to face. Ours certainly isnt and neither is my mum's. They are trying to minimize face to face appointments to only when strictly necessary which is fair enough.

@Porcupineintherough

Not all gps are refusing to see anyone face to face. Ours certainly isnt and neither is my mum's. They are trying to minimize face to face appointments to only when strictly necessary which is fair enough.

I agree they're trying to minimise contacts but the GP saw my 3 year old on Wednesday and I have an appointment next week.

@strippeddowntothebone your gp does sound crap. My mum had her vitamin b12 injections suspended during the first lockdown but they started again in July.

What does your gp say when asked?

@torquewench

I have a theory that the NHS might cope better if hospital capacity increased at the same rate of new build housing. Theres literally thousands of new build homes in my region, but the (3 years behind schedule) new hospital (being built to replace an existing one, not to increase capacity) will actually have fewer beds than the old one. Can anyone explain the logic in that?

It's best to try to understand 'capacity' in the NHS as available, trained and covid-free staff rather than beds and buildings.

It is really hard, but yes it's important to realise this is not a case of covid somehow having an unfair priority. We really don't have the option of paying less attention to it. High covid case numbers in a local community put patients with all conditions at risk. They make it too dangerous for lots of types of surgery - this is a medical risk because of what both surgery and covid (with its vascular component) do to the body. They make it dangerous for some cancer patients to even be in the building. It's not about how we decide to think about covid - deciding to pay less attention to it and to try to run things as normal wouldn't solve either of those problems, and that's before we get into all the staffing issues caused by high covid case rates in a local community. We have a lot less freedom to choose how we react than I think some people realise.

What do you mean'GP are not taking place'.

I work in a gp surgery and we are busier than ever.

It’s not protecting the NHS, it protecting the people who need the NHS to the fullest extent that it can be done.

And yes that means part of business as usual will get stepped down and there will be changes to how treatment is provided. If anyone has another solution let us all know. But it won’t be a futile attempt to shield the vulnerable whilst the virus spreads. Because we are doing as much shielding as possible and variant is effectively letting rip through the population.

London has the best bed capacity due to the large number of teaching and specialist hospitals. It’s running out of capacity before Christmas and before the surge of admissions due to infections has happened. That sneeze in london will be well worse for the rest of the country pissing about in tier 2 and 3 and making Merry for Christmas.

It’s to protect the nhs - if you believe the govt.
it’s not to protect the nhs as they have more empty wards this year than last - if you believe the media.
Take your choice.

What does paying less attention to covid look like in reality?

See, what gets me is that if it is about "saving the NHS" (which by the way isn't our job but that's a whole other thread), then why haven't we had to save them any other year? I could find article after article from last year, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 and beyond talking about overwhelmed hospitals, people dieing in ambulances outside, "health bosses" pleading for help because they are on their news. Nobody gave a shit in those years?

The NHS has been developed with not quite enough capacity to meet demand historically. This ensures it runs very very hot, it’s called sweating your assets and ensures your efficient and represent good value for money. To be fair every western healthcare system works exactly the same to a certain extent.

The issue is when something like covid comes along and pushes in huge volumes of new activity well above our ability to surge.

The only way to cope and not exceed capacity is to:

Reduce demand (which lockdowns have been very successful at)

The lockdown downs have probably created enough space and staff to keep doing other things but are hampered by important IPC controls that impact efficiency

Stop doing other things (this is the ethical dilemma, why is covid getting prioritised? Well it’s usually an acute emergency, but I do think more effort should have in to creating “clean hospitals”)

Dilute staffing ratios to open extra capacity (this is the one thing nobody has really been willing to tackle yet).

On their knees, not their news ffs

Dilute staffing ratios to open extra capacity this is the one thing nobody has really been willing to tackle yet

You can't dilute our hospital anymore, we've barely enough staff at the moment to run safely as it is!

Hip and knee ops and gallbladders etc get cancelled every winter due to bed pressures. So in many ways this is an exacerbation of what always happens.

There was nothing obvious to ask the general public to do to protect the NHS in other years. Apart from get your flu jab which is always pushed.

Given the fuss made about mask wearing and other measures for COVID how would it have gone down if we asked you to do it for seasonal flu? No-one would bother would they?

Whose job is it to save the NHS then if not it's users??
Who else can save it?

Presumably 'the government' but how do they save it without public co-operation?

I mean if you don't want to save it then that's your look out and I just don't have anything to say apart from good luck lying in that bed when you've made it for yourself.
If you are confident you'll never fall and break anything or get cancer or meningitis or any other thing you might need the NHS for them you knock yourself out.

Why not both, @Silvergreen? It seems illogical. Every year precious to this one for a good while, we've seen stories about people waiting on trollies as there no bed for them. House building (and Id assume population) increases year on year. We never hear about a corresponding increase in hospital beds (not being snarky, genuine q)

@DonkeyMcFluff

Really? People are getting physio for a bad chest? I couldn’t even get physio for c section complications and diastasis recti! Got told to look on Google and copy someone doing pilates.

Seriously?

Chest physio is vital when you're intubated as you can't clear your own secretions what with being paralysed with muscle relaxants so we can ventilate you. Chest physio loosens those secretions so that people like me can put a suction catheter down your endotracheal tube and suction them away, so that you don't end up with an infection, so that your lungs can work properly and your brain gets enough oxygen

Chest physio helps rehabilitate patients post pneumonia so that they can breathe properly and prevent secondary chest infections.

I could go on.

Glad some are still managing to see their GPs; as I've mentioned before, mine's using this as a money making scheme by flogging private only appointments, and on NHS time at that

As with so much else, I believe the measures aren't so much to "protect" the NHS as to cover up for decades of mismanagement (and enable it to continue)

Even if beds are overwhelmed, why is a physio session cancelled? Care home where I work has managed to stay covid free until a resident needed an xray at local hospital, within days she was positive and carer who took her was positive. Now one third of the old people in the home are positive. She needed her xray but it has come at a high cost.

@suitsnot

So far though it hasn’t been overwhelmed and yet GPs and minor surgeries unrelated to covid are not taking place. These staff can’t treat covid patients as they are not trained to do so but then they are also not carrying out normal services such as surgeries and physio. It doesn’t seem right.

I don't know where you heard GP appointments and minor surgeries are not taking place? My family and I are in east London, tier 4, and my mum saw the doctor last week, son saw the doctor 2 weeks ago about his ear infection, my father in law had minor surgery about a month back. Doesn't seem to be many problems here.

Why the Nightingale Hospitals are sitting empty is really odd though....I find it strange how the media aren't asking that question..

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Glad some are still managing to see their GPs; as I've mentioned before, mine's using this as a money making scheme by flogging private only appointments, and on NHS time at that

As with so much else, I believe the measures aren't so much to "protect" the NHS as to cover up for decades of mismanagement (and enable it to continue)

So is my dentist...