Is this to protect the NHS?

[suitsnot]

I assume this has been discussed before. I’ve not checked all the posts.

Does anyone have a clear answer on why this virus is taking precedence over quite literally every other illness and destroying the economy simultaneously? I don’t mean to sound facetious. Is it simply that the NHS will collapse if we don’t manage it? I can sort of see that but then again, so much else is collapsing that is causing slower health problems...mental health being key. I know of two suicides and lots more struggling mentally. Others who have not had treatment they should have had for ongoing health problems. A friend has ME and her health has declined terribly as she is not able to go to regular appointments. I know first hand that plenty of doctors have been quieter this year than ever - of course not including those in intensive care with high levels of patients. But generally across the board.

Is this concern about covid solely about making sure cases are managed so that the nhs isn’t overwhelmed? It seems like such a strange approach.

It is to protect the NHS.

Every option is a different shade of shit. There is no approach that doesn’t have massive negative consequences. Protecting the NHS is the immediate short-term priority; I assume that once the danger is passed they can then try to address the avalanche of other problems.

Yep,totally agree. The fall out from this will be that in the next ten years,the NHS as we know it won't exist for a myriad of reasons. We won't have the economy to pay for it and we won't have the staff to run it

Our local hospital is in a state of emergency as they have nearly 200 patients with Covid. Because it's so contagious they can't have the bed capacity they usually do so the hospital fits less people. There isn't the capacity for care packages for people being discharged as the care agencies have staff needing to isolate etc and the care homes are helping by providing discharge to assess beds but they're all filling up meaning there is nowhere for people who require care packages, care homes or further assessment to go.

If Covid isn't under control there will not be the hospital beds or staff to care for people with other conditions. We already know the biggest issue with ICU capacity is lack of staff, not lack of ventilators. No one in the NHS is trying to deny any care to people without covid, they're just trying to keep as much open as they can without there being a huge outbreak.

@suitsnot

It’s easy for me to say as I’m low risk but how long do we neglect everyone under age 70?

Even if beds are overwhelmed, why is a physio session cancelled? That is essential to some people. A physiotherapist can’t treat covid so it’s no loss there.

Actually physios are pretty vital to the recovery of ICU patients, especially ones who have been intubated. And GP surgeries are all still going ahead where I live but with more online triage calls and then a decision if you need to come in. Video calls and pics are being used to assist decision making.

Also if you let the virus run through society then huge sectors of retail etc will have to shut anyway. Look at all the chickens they had to cull because the meat processing plants got shut down because of so many people getting covid. And the farmers who struggled to get people to pick fruit over the summer (added to by Brexit). It's not just the NHS itself, who will respond to a burning building and risk compromising their lungs further if they are already sick with COVID - and if they don't stay home and keep on going like we do with colds and flu they will just make everyone around them sick. The problem with the virus is that it has the possibility to make a lot of us sick at the same time and that is what the danger is - everything will be overwhelmed.
Who will teach children in schools if the teachers all get sick?

A physiotherapist can’t treat covid so it’s no loss there

I know I work for the NHS but I wonder if people are genuinely this clueless. Have a read up on respiratory physio. I thought the chest physio necessary for people with CF was pretty well known. There have been some good studies done on physio and Covid if you have a google.

Really? People are getting physio for a bad chest? I couldn’t even get physio for c section complications and diastasis recti! Got told to look on Google and copy someone doing pilates.

@Layladylay234

Yep,totally agree. The fall out from this will be that in the next ten years,the NHS as we know it won't exist for a myriad of reasons. We won't have the economy to pay for it and we won't have the staff to run it

I agree with this, definitely one of the long-term consequences. Its not just Covid though, it’s decades of underfunding and neglect.

It is to protect the nhs and should have never have got to this as the nhs has had cuts for years /let people fly over to have babies /nhs bosses getting paid £'a .... I remember ambulances waiting outside a few years ago it should never be like this ....

Jesus fucking Christ are we still having this fucking conversation?

@DonkeyMcFluff

Really? People are getting physio for a bad chest? I couldn’t even get physio for c section complications and diastasis recti! Got told to look on Google and copy someone doing pilates.

Although I agree the NHS is underfunded and you should have had access to a physio most physios I know who were redeployed worked on ICU with Covid patients coming off ventilation. Can you not see why that's important? Would you also describe someone with cystic fibrosis having regular chest physio to keep them alive as not needing it because they just have some 'breathing problems'.

It's shit, there are not enough staff to go around but physios do life saving work and of course that needs to be prioritised.

Sorry I meant 'bad chest' instead of 'breathing problems'

www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4847

This is the editorial which sparked off the Christmas debate.

GPS are working flat out, just because they aren't seeing all patients face to face does not mean they aren’t working.

Physios are working on ITU and rehabilitating covid patients.

[quote suitsnot]@BaileyBoos people are already dying because of this pandemic and unrelated to covid. It’s worth considering the strategy.[/quote]
And more would die if there was nothing done to try and limit the spread of the virus.
Lockdowns or not some people who get covid will still continue to need hospital treatment. The more get it then the more will be hospitalised. Do you suggest that the covid suffered needing care are turned away from hospital so non covid sufferers can be treated instead?

Perhaps have a little peep at my CPAP thread OP - so that you can be a little bit better informed. No doubt at just the wrong side of 60, I’m on your disposable list?

And yet I’m a higher rate taxpayer (very much so) and am more than willing to pay more tax to get the NHS back on its feet.

And I have been seeing the wonderful physios whilst on the respiratory ward trying to get back to fitness and, you know, not dying.

I truly, truly am staggered that people still have no clue what the immediate issues are.

In wales, yes, definitely. The NHS is v close to being overrun. No icu capacity in s Wales, with one hospital making waiting areas into extra wards with 700 staff isolating, and another maxed out plus 100 bed field hospital full.

19 hour ambulance waits, the a&e departments are rock bottom. Obvously surgeries are cancelled because nowhere to put them in recovery, and if anything goes wrong, tough.

So yes, the longer the nhs has to contend with covidbthebless chance of routine things being put back in place.

I watched hospital on bbc - I was crying at some of the episodes. Watch it op

@Mumof3andlovingit you’ve said:
And more would die if there was nothing done to try and limit the spread of the virus.
Lockdowns or not some people who get covid will still continue to need hospital treatment. The more get it then the more will be hospitalised. Do you suggest that the covid suffered needing care are turned away from hospital so non covid sufferers can be treated instead?

Yet that’s exactly what you’re asking of non covid patients.

@LittleSpyintheSky there’s no disposable list. That’s not what I meant, as I’m sure you are aware. Not treating people with other conditions has wider concerns - is that really the right way? I don’t think it is. That’s all I am saying.

I have a theory that the NHS might cope better if hospital capacity increased at the same rate of new build housing. Theres literally thousands of new build homes in my region, but the (3 years behind schedule) new hospital (being built to replace an existing one, not to increase capacity) will actually have fewer beds than the old one. Can anyone explain the logic in that?

Do you have any stats for how many life threatening procedures have been refused/delayed? Cancer treatment has been ongoing here, my mum has been diagnosed, operated on and treated for cancer since April, I've seen rheumatology twice, though still waiting for a minor surgery, which I'm happy to wait for as it's not an emergency just painful.

It seems difficult to argue a point based on no solid info.

OP I have explained why people with 'other conditions' are 'not getting treated'

(They are BTW but only the most serious. Anything non life threatening is getting cancelled).

It isn't a free choice it's just a necessity
There are not the staff or beds to do both
You cannot turn away the COVID patients presenting unable to breath at the door and just let them die. We have to treat them.
We therefore cannot do everything else we usually do

Seriously what is your alternative suggestion?

When there is a lot of coronavirus around being treated in hospital for non- COVID conditions comes with the big fucking risk of contracting COVID. So not surprising that caution is used to minimize the risk of that happening.

My FiL had surgery for bowel cancer in September- it couldn't wait. My MiL will wait for her hip transplant- even though she can barely move- because the risk of going into hospital right now is too great, even if staff and beds were available.

I am still having to give myself my B12 injections as GP stopped doing them in March and they are still not doing anything face to face.

@suitsnot

It’s easy for me to say as I’m low risk but how long do we neglect everyone under age 70?

Even if beds are overwhelmed, why is a physio session cancelled? That is essential to some people. A physiotherapist can’t treat covid so it’s no loss there.

What on earth are you talking about? Do you even know what a physio does?