Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Costco denying entry to mask exempt unless they wear a shield

648 replies

LifelsAPigsty · 22/12/2020 21:00

Surely this is discrimination? Some people who can't wear a mask can't wear a visor either (I can't, I have trigeminal neuralgia and can't tolerate any pressure on my face/head/temples). There are other conditions which make wearing them impossible, too. I'm sure the government guidelines state this sort of action isn't permitted?

I don't shop at Costco personally but I'm so worried other places will follow suit (and no, I can't avoid shops sadly - no delivery slots for months here and I don't drive so no c&c. Also no friends/relatives to shop for me).

Yet another layer of anxiety and worry Sad

Costco denying entry to mask exempt unless they wear a shield
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
sergeilavrov · 31/12/2020 17:57

@underhisi If a certified medical doctor signed off that non-masked time outside but also not in a private garden is a requirement for your son, you maybe could get somewhere with an adjustment in a rural area e.g. being moved to the countryside to be based on a date farm where there is more space and no one to infect as these are private property. There have been a few cases where this has been done. I don't see any evidence in the work of regional government's to find workable solutions that suggest the lives of people with challenges like your son aren't valued or are made to be unsafe. It may be that the outdoor temperature here would pose a risk to your son, of course, but that's not the government's fault.

Of course, there are many children who are medicated where this is medically necessary, and I wouldn't pass judgement on that. I trust medical professionals.

alexdgr8 · 31/12/2020 18:10

OP, i recognise the severity of your condition. i accept that you do not choose to not be able to wear a mask.
what i disagree with is your insisting on going into shops, without a mask, and refusing to consider any other way to get supplies.
that sounds disingenuous, or uncaring or irresponsible.
there are other ways of getting supplies. so that's not the issue.
i think you militancy is misdirected.

take care and lets hope all we and ours survive this plague.

Underhisi · 31/12/2020 18:11

sergeilavrov I'm glad that allowance is made. For many people like my son who will have no idea why things have changed, it would be horrendous to never be allowed outside. We chose not to shield him because of it although we wouldn't take him to anywhere busy anyway even before covid because he would hate it.

Haenow · 31/12/2020 18:42

@Underhisi

"Logically, yes, it’s a person’s legal right to be exempt but the risk to others feels too much."

My son is profoundly disabled and cannot keep a mask on anymore than a baby can. It isn't all about legal rights. He had a separate room to wait in at his hospital but I had to push for it. He needs one anyway because of his severe autism but I always have to push to get it.

"That is more important than someone’s right to be treated perfectly equally to others when they both pose and are at a higher risk of transmission of a virus killing people"

Parents with children in school particularly those with lots of children,have a higher risk of transmission. Do we say they have blood on their hands? Do we say the children have blood on their hands?

The doctor was referring to those who choose not to comply.

@Underhisi

I was simply expressing my feelings. I work with people with profound and multiple LD, so I fully respect that some people cannot wear masks. It is a balance of legal rights though. Obviously, nobody could legally insist your son wear a mask.

longdarkwinter · 31/12/2020 19:41

The USA state I live in has strong well enforced mask wearing regulations.
There are medical exceptions to this.
I haven't seen anyone not wearing a mask indoors for months which means that if I saw someone without a mask I would know that they had a good reason not to be wearing one.
This means that people with disabilities are protected twice over, once from people who should be masked but don't bother and secondly from others assuming that they are also people who should be masked but can't be bothered.

Much clearer masking policies and enforcement protects everyone including those with disabilities.

LangClegsInSpace · 31/12/2020 20:22

Equalities law does not give you a right to enter commercial premises without a mask if the business directs you to wear one.

Until/unless this is tested in court we don't know that but I'd be very surprised if Costco won such a case.

The 'reasonable excuses' in the legislation specifically refer to people who cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering because of a disability within the meaning of section 6 of the Equality Act 2010. Also to those accompanying or providing assistance to someone who relies on lipreading.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/regulation/4

The explanatory memorandum that accompanies this legislation states:

7.6 Exemptions from this requirement exist for members of the public with a “reasonable excuse” for not wearing a face covering. A non-exhaustive list of circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse is set out in regulation 4, and generally relate to medical and equalities grounds. ... Nobody who has a reasonable excuse as set out in regulation 4 and is therefore not wearing a face covering should be prevented from visiting a shop or supermarket or other setting covered by these Regulations.

And also:

12.2 The Department has considered the fact that some people may be deterred from visiting the relevant settings where these Regulations apply due to them being required to wear a face covering either because they cannot source a suitable face covering or they have protected characteristics (e.g. a disability) which makes it difficult to wear a face covering ... The Department has also included a range of exemptions to ensure that this policy does not unfairly discriminate against those with protected characteristics. Furthermore, the policy will be supported by a communications campaign that will make clear that some people are exempt from these regulations and people should not be challenged by members of the public for not wearing a face covering.
(my bold)

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/memorandum/contents

And, as has already been noted, the guidance on the government website also says that nobody who is exempt from wearing a face covering should be denied entry to a shop, public transport or other 'relevant place'.

So it's very clear that the government intends the exemptions to function, in part, as a reasonable adjustment to prevent unfair discrimination against disabled people. My understanding is that where legislation is not 100% clear, the government's intentions carry a lot of weight in court.

If a shop or other 'relevant place' decides not to honour the exemptions - 'No mask, No entry, No excuse!' - then this has a huge and disproportionate impact on some disabled people. It's indirect discrimination which is only lawful if it's a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

Nobody's arguing that preventing the spread of the virus is not a legitimate aim. The argument is about whether denying entry for some disabled people to shops, public transport and pretty much all other indoor public spaces is a proportionate means of achieving that aim.

Costco would have to argue that masks alone make so much difference to the spread of the virus that they are justified in ignoring government guidance and refusing entry to some disabled people because they are unable to wear a face covering.

I think they'd find that very difficult because masks only make a bit of difference, just like washing hands makes a bit of difference, 2M distancing makes a bit of difference, all the convoluted and ever changing rules on social gatherings, which businesses are allowed to open until what time and whether they must serve a scotch egg, who's allowed in our homes or gardens, how long we must isolate or quarantine ... bla bla bla. All the measures make a bit of difference and we need all of them and we need the majority of people to comply with each of them but there has never been (in the modeling) an expectation of 100% compliance with any of them.

And, as we are discovering, even tier 4 restrictions are nowhere near enough to contain the new variant because schools are open and they are not safe, and people still have to take public transport to spend hours each day in their supposedly 'covid-secure' workplaces.

That's the background against which we should judge whether it's proportionate to refuse entry to all public indoor places, as well as public transport, for disabled people who are unable to wear a face covering, for the foreseeable future.

Clearly that's massively disproportionate.

That's before we even consider Costco's concession of allowing those who are unable to wear a mask to wear a visor instead, which goes against not only government guidance but also scientific consensus. This is hygiene theatre which calls into question what their legitimate aim is in the first place.

TBF, the government's main stated aim for the face covering legislation was to increase consumer confidence. Preventing infection was only ever secondary. This is evident in that prick Hat Mancock's speech as well as in the explanatory memorandum:

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/face-coverings-to-be-mandatory-in-shops-and-supermarkets-from-24-july

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/memorandum/contents

See also the government guidance, still live when the legislation came in, on how to make a 'face covering' out of a single layer of old t-shirt:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200714162332/www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200714162332/www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering

Consumer confidence is a legitimate aim for a business but if that's what Costco are relying on then their discriminatory policy looks even more disproportionate.

LangClegsInSpace · 31/12/2020 20:30

(I write this as a employment lawyer who completed her Oxford dissertation on equalities legislation.)

This kind of appeal to authority falls a bit flat on an anonymous forum.

If you're a lawyer with splendid qualifications you should be able to put up a decent argument as to why this discriminatory policy is lawful so why don't you do that?

Costco denying entry to mask exempt unless they wear a shield
BaublesToIt · 31/12/2020 21:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bathroom12345 · 31/12/2020 21:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Al1langdownthecleghole · 31/12/2020 22:14

A reasonable exception could be

.Home delivery
.Click and collect
.A nominated other collecting your shopping.

None of which require mask less shopping.

IrmaFayLear · 31/12/2020 22:17

I hear what you are saying, @LangClegsInSpace .

But when all’s said and done, someone has to be pretty determinedly bloody minded to think that their comfort trumps other people’s right not to be infected.

In a hospital setting obviously adjustments have to be made, particularly for those with learning difficulties, but for those who really can’t wear any kind of cover at all (and I believe this must be a tiny number) they should show some decency and avoid indoor places.

I believe I am exempt, but wouldn’t dream of pressing my “advantage”.

Gingernaut · 31/12/2020 22:19

A shop is a private premises, the manager of which can refuse service to anyone they see fit.

Someone who can't wear a mask can send a proxy or have stuff delivered.

If you can't send someone to act on your behalf and Costco don't deliver, then you're welcome to take your custom elsewhere.

Sockwomble · 31/12/2020 23:21

"I am sorry to say that looking at the death rates today we are going to have to introduce some stricter measures. If that means you cannot enter a store without a mask so be it."

Well that's a lot of people with young children banned then.

Billie18 · 31/12/2020 23:42

@IrmaFayLear

I hear what you are saying, *@LangClegsInSpace* .

But when all’s said and done, someone has to be pretty determinedly bloody minded to think that their comfort trumps other people’s right not to be infected.

In a hospital setting obviously adjustments have to be made, particularly for those with learning difficulties, but for those who really can’t wear any kind of cover at all (and I believe this must be a tiny number) they should show some decency and avoid indoor places.

I believe I am exempt, but wouldn’t dream of pressing my “advantage”.

That doesn't make sense. If you are exempt that means for whatever reason you can't tolerate wearing a mask. If you can wear one then you clearly can tolerate wearing one therefore you are not exempt.
MadameBlobby · 31/12/2020 23:46

*A shop is a private premises, the manager of which can refuse service to anyone they see fit.

Wrong

IrmaFayLear · 31/12/2020 23:46

I can manage for a few minutes. I was gasping when I had a hospital appointment, but so be it. I don’t go in any shops and certainly wouldn’t go browsing without a mask.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/01/2021 00:15

@Al1langdownthecleghole

A reasonable exception could be

.Home delivery
.Click and collect
.A nominated other collecting your shopping.

None of which require mask less shopping.

What's a 'reasonable exception'? Do you mean a 'reasonable adjustment'?

Here's what the EA statutory code says about reasonable adjustments:

7.4 - The policy of the Act is not a minimalist policy of simply ensuring that some access is available to disabled people; it is, so far as is reasonably practicable, to approximate the access enjoyed by disabled people to that enjoyed by the rest of the public. The purpose of the duty to make reasonable adjustments is to provide access to a service as close as it is reasonably possible to get to the standard normally offered to the public at large (and their equivalents in relation to associations or the exercise of public functions).

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/services-public-functions-and-associations-statutory-code-practice

So Costco would have to show why it was not reasonably practicable to use the RA that has already been set out by the government and written into legislation - i.e. to respect the mask exemptions and allow those who are unable to wear a face covering the same access to the service as everyone else.

Statutory code is not quite law and it's possible to challenge it but this particular part of the code is well backed up by case law so I wouldn't fancy their chances.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/01/2021 00:29

I am sorry to say that looking at the death rates today we are going to have to introduce some stricter measures. If that means you cannot enter a store without a mask so be it.

There are two very alarming things about this thread.

The first is posters' blatant discriminatory attitudes to disabled people and their apparent lack of any discomfort in expressing those attitudes.

The second is the ludicrous amount of faith people have in face coverings. They help a bit if enough of us wear them, that's all.

The incredibly rapid rise in infections, hospitalisations and deaths is truly frightening. Do you honestly think that preventing a few disabled people from going in shops because they can't wear a mask will have the slightest impact on this clusterfuck?

MadameBlobby · 01/01/2021 01:08

@LangClegsInSpace

I am sorry to say that looking at the death rates today we are going to have to introduce some stricter measures. If that means you cannot enter a store without a mask so be it.

There are two very alarming things about this thread.

The first is posters' blatant discriminatory attitudes to disabled people and their apparent lack of any discomfort in expressing those attitudes.

The second is the ludicrous amount of faith people have in face coverings. They help a bit if enough of us wear them, that's all.

The incredibly rapid rise in infections, hospitalisations and deaths is truly frightening. Do you honestly think that preventing a few disabled people from going in shops because they can't wear a mask will have the slightest impact on this clusterfuck?

Agreed
MadameBlobby · 01/01/2021 01:10

*So Costco would have to show why it was not reasonably practicable to use the RA that has already been set out by the government and written into legislation - i.e. to respect the mask exemptions and allow those who are unable to wear a face covering the same access to the service as everyone else.

Statutory code is not quite law and it's possible to challenge it but this particular part of the code is well backed up by case law so I wouldn't fancy their chances.*

Also agreed. I am not confident at all Costco would succeed if someone raised an action against them under the EqAct.

withmycoffee · 01/01/2021 08:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sockwomble · 01/01/2021 09:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MadameBlobby · 01/01/2021 09:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread