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Covid

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To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

999 replies

PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 22/12/2020 08:35

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

OP posts:
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MarshaBradyo · 22/12/2020 10:59

@Carrotcakeforbreakfast

It can be part of any virus you're right. However, in my 20 years doing my job I have not seen anywhere near as many people requiring specialist care after having any other virus.

We are talking fit 20 year olds who have ended up on transplant lists.

And I know I said I wouldn't come back to this thread but I cannot help it.
It is staggering the misconceptions here.

What will happen after phase 1 vaccine is rolled out? Won’t twenty year olds still be at risk?
Carrotcakeforbreakfast · 22/12/2020 11:00

More than there should be!

If the theme of this thread was followed. Which it won't be. Lets throw caution to the wind and fuck it, I'll probably be okay.
There would be a hell of a lot more!

Madhairday · 22/12/2020 11:00

Why did we not lockdown when the hospitals were at 95 percent capacity in previous years? Would love anyone's thoughts on this as it baffles me.

Because we were not facing a virus with exponential spread.
Because we were not facing a novel virus on top of all the other usual winter disease.

OP I agree that the NHS has been chronically underfunded and that has become more of an issue through this. But what I am puzzled by on this thread is why people think the government are doing this. They are a Tory government. They have proven themselves to not give a fig about the vulnerable over the past 10 years. They care about business and the economy. And yet you accuse them of pissing all of that up the wall for no reason at all, or to save 80 year olds who were going to die anyway.

Many countries are having the exact same issues, whatever the government does, because this thing spreads. For those who go on and on about the small death rate and the fact that it's mostly those pesky vulnerable who die of it, do you not realise a small percentage of a massive number is still a huge number? And whatever you want to say about average ages of death, an average means numbers on both sides, and the evidence from the ground on wards is of many younger people hospitalised because of that law of averages.

But this was never about saving lives. This was always about trying to stop the NHS becoming so overwhelmed that the rest of society doesn't break down. For those saying it's all madness, what are you actually suggesting is the solution to this, that doesn't actually cause further breakdown in the areas you claim to be so concerned about?

If covid was left to burn through, what do you think would happen to those with other conditions like cancer? Would they now magically somehow have their treatment all restored on time, or would it be even more set back - and catastrophically so in huge numbers - because of the sheer number of covid admissions caused by lack of restrictions? Hospitals treat acute things as urgent priority and that's why they are doing this: because covid presents as acute emergency, whereas many other chronic conditions do not in such great numbers piling on all at once. Until, that is, covid is left to rip through and all these other conditions left without treatment.

What would happen to mental health services? You are concerned about people's mental health due to lockdown and rightly so. But if an exponential virus is let rip then it reaches into all areas of society. It decimates everything. Mental health staff sick and isolating in ever growing numbers, patients themselves getting sick, the escalation of it would be intense and awful.

What about businesses? If covid were left alone, would businesses magically be fine after all, or would the unimaginable effects of an exponential virus have even more adverse effects? People would stop shopping, stop going to the pub. Society would break down in greater measure than now, all because of numbers.

Of course the government should invest a whole lot more in cancer research and mental health services. They have been incredibly lacking in their support of such things and their ideology of austerity. But when you have an acute situation you have to respond to that first in order to cope with all the other things.

I am no Tory fan. I have never voted for them in my life. And I think they have made a huge mess of all this. But I don't see what the solution is. When you are all saying this is madness, what is the alternative? What is your solution?

Please don't say shield the vulnerable. That is not a practical or compassionate solution seeing as the vulnerable number millions and are so integrated in society.

Cornettoninja · 22/12/2020 11:01

It can happen with ANY virus to a minority of people. Its unfortunate but its always been a thing

True and fair enough.

Would you at least concede that there are an awful lot of people currently with post-viral syndrome?

It doesn’t really matter what it’s called if it’s causing people ongoing health issues.

alreadytaken · 22/12/2020 11:01

heads still in the sand. Long covid cases frequently have organ damage, sometimes multiple organ damage, than you see on scans and x-rays. There will be others who have the sort of long term fatigue you get after any viral illness. You want to know what that is like - self-isolation that goes on for years and possibly life long. This is what you want to create.

Virus rates have been rising in the young and spreading from them to their grandparents and parents. It spreads from the staff into care homes. It gets into hospitals when a patients or staff member is asymptomatic. It's not about sloppy cleaning, this is a virus you almost always get from a person. Sometimes you get it from a person whose PPE is pathetic, or has been pulled off by a demented covid patient. Sometimes you get it because the hospital has no beds in covid wards and a patient who tests positive is left in your ward, because you have probably been infected already and they have nowhere to move the covid patient.

Meanwhile as someone commented earlier nursing and medical training is also being affected.

We are in a mess, the government made it worse than was necessary. The fastest way out is to quit pretending your fantasy is real - social distance, wear a mask properly, get vaccinated as soon as you can. You are the people who prolong this.

hollyangel · 22/12/2020 11:01

@rigabalsam and anyone else who has mentioned how Sweden have dealt with this.

See below graph from FT highlighting how deaths per 100k are broadly in line between Sweden and countries that have spent billions on furloughed staff and shut down small businesses forever. These countries also have mandated mask wearing for months.
You can play around with the graph yourself, it's v interesting to compare:

ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=gbr&areas=swe&areas=fra&areas=ita&areasRegional=usny&areasRegional=usnj&areasRegional=usia&areasRegional=usca&areasRegional=usnd&areasRegional=ussd&cumulative=0&logScale=0&per100K=1&startDate=2020-09-01&values=deaths

To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid
ForestNymph · 22/12/2020 11:02

@Carrotcakeforbreakfast

More than there should be!

If the theme of this thread was followed. Which it won't be. Lets throw caution to the wind and fuck it, I'll probably be okay.
There would be a hell of a lot more!

But the majority don't end up on the transplant list. The majority recover. I've had covid, as has my DD I mentioned. She didn't even notice. Yet a common cold nearly killed her when she was a baby. Should I demand a lockdown every time there's a flare up of stuffy noses?

We can't stop living our lives because a minority becomes sick.

AntiHop · 22/12/2020 11:02

[quote ForestNymph]@queenofknives

It terrifies me. I've always highly valued liberty and autonomy. The fact some people are so willing to not only lick the boot but to deepthroat it sickens me. Its disgusting[/quote]
This highly offensive those of us who have sensibly follow the advice and keep within the law.

I also highly value my freedom. My parents are from a non democratic country (and moved to the uk) so I have a better understanding than most about the implications of losing your freedom.

Over many years, I have taken part in many campaigns about upholding our freedoms and rights in the UK. I've lost count of how many protests I've been on.

But I still think that the way our government (and most of other European governments) have reacted is proportionate and necessary to the public health emergency (although the Tories have made a lot of huge mistakes).

Circumlocutious · 22/12/2020 11:02

Yeah, it's not just 'the NHS' that lacks beds. No modern healthcare system can continue to operate with the unmitigated reproduction rate of this virus. It's been said many times before but people seem to be deliberately dense about. It's not the death rate: an 8% hospitalisation rate for people in their 50s is no joke in terms of managing capacity. And surprise surprise, if you can't admit people to hospital swiftly for early oxygen intervention, as we're doing now, then the death rate will go up.

RaspberryCoulis · 22/12/2020 11:02

Completely agree. Utter madness.

ForestNymph · 22/12/2020 11:03

@Cornettoninja

It can happen with ANY virus to a minority of people. Its unfortunate but its always been a thing

True and fair enough.

Would you at least concede that there are an awful lot of people currently with post-viral syndrome?

It doesn’t really matter what it’s called if it’s causing people ongoing health issues.

Yes. I have it myself. Doesn't mean I think we should all be on house arrest though.
Iheartmysmart · 22/12/2020 11:03

Couldn’t agree more. I’m far more fearful that my mental health won’t hold out for any more of this uncertainty than I am of catching Covid.

Flaxmeadow · 22/12/2020 11:03

No rational person would destroy U.K. to save a few thousand over 80-90yr olds (that traditionally secretly die of normal flu anyway but the press don't report it and no one usually cares).

No rational person would allow this highly infectious disease to rip through our population causing half a million deaths in a short space of time. This virus unchecked would have crashed our health, and some other, services within the space of a few weeks.

It's incredible that there are still people saying "but it hasn't killed loads of people" and then in the next breath saying "lockdown doesn't work"

Of course lockdown works to protect the health service, obviously. The reason we have brought an estimated half a million deaths down to 67,000 is precisely because we locked down

Carrotcakeforbreakfast · 22/12/2020 11:03

alreadytaken

Finally some sanity! I wish everyone would just understand and apply even just a tiny amount of common sense.

Bunbunbunny · 22/12/2020 11:03

@MillieVanilla

Notice how there's been no mention of flu rates this year The new strain isn't more deadly. If anything, this is like small pox and how the cure was found by people getting cow pox and being immune. But a less deadly virus doesn't work for Boris and his covid as excuse/distraction policy
There has been it's been significantly down on previous years -90%

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/12/04/nhs-could-dodge-winter-crisis-as-flu-cases-drop-90-and-covid-vaccines-arrive-13699660/amp/

Schonerlebnis · 22/12/2020 11:03

Always people ready to sacrifice someone else's granny, mother, aunty or daughter. Easy to be pragmatic when you're alright jack.
I've been present at many difficult conversations with relatives over the years and have truthfully never known any say 'my relative is over 75, let's not bother, let someone younger have the bed, it's not economically viable to keep my loved one alive'. From a theoretical point of view, easy to be flippant, real life scenario very different.

queenofknives · 22/12/2020 11:04

This highly offensive those of us who have sensibly follow the advice and keep within the law.

How is it offensive to you? If you are NOT calling for a police state, then it's not about you.

TheClaws · 22/12/2020 11:04

My daughter had respiratory arrest after a common cold and needed CPAP and a nasogastric tube for 6 months. She didn't have "long rhinovirus". She had complications after a viral infection.

It can happen with ANY virus to a minority of people. Its unfortunate but its always been a thing.

ForestNymph Do you not understand how Covid attacks the body, 10 months in? You seem to be posing as some kind of expert here. (A clue: Covid is not a cold or the flu.)

hollyangel · 22/12/2020 11:06

@madhairday

You say 'Please don't say shield the vulnerable. That is not a practical or compassionate solution seeing as the vulnerable number millions and are so integrated in society.'

How is them practical to tell everyone to stay home, like they did in March and like they will do again in January?

Delatron · 22/12/2020 11:06

I agree with @onedayinthefuture

Most viruses are seasonal. We should have let kids back to school from April/May when cases were naturally lower and they could have spent more time outside.

A virus will do what a virus does. Lockdown is just prolonging the process. Fine if you think the NHS will be overwhelmed temporarily but it can never me something that goes on for months and months. Elimination was never our strategy.

I have no idea why we pushed the second wave to autumn/winter and sent all the kids back to school all at once in September.

I also disagree about Sweden that handled it badly. We need to all look back in 5 years when the long term impacts of multiple lockdowns have been ascertained.

ForestNymph · 22/12/2020 11:07

@TheClaws

My daughter had respiratory arrest after a common cold and needed CPAP and a nasogastric tube for 6 months. She didn't have "long rhinovirus". She had complications after a viral infection.

It can happen with ANY virus to a minority of people. Its unfortunate but its always been a thing.

ForestNymph Do you not understand how Covid attacks the body, 10 months in? You seem to be posing as some kind of expert here. (A clue: Covid is not a cold or the flu.)

Never claimed to be an expert on covid. But yes, I am familiar with the fact it is a coronavirus and not a rhinovirus or an influenza variant and I am aware it has vascular complications due to how it operates. I'm aware that the vascular involvement is why the symptoms can be widespread from migraines to strokes to numb toes.
Carrotcakeforbreakfast · 22/12/2020 11:07

We aren't fully into flu season yet
Also

I can't believe this takes explaining but flu transmission will of course be down due to the measures taken to stop the spread of covid.

alreadytaken · 22/12/2020 11:07

People wont actually come right out and say I had it mildly and I dont give a fuck for anyone else - but that is what they mean.

ForestNymph · 22/12/2020 11:08

@queenofknives

This highly offensive those of us who have sensibly follow the advice and keep within the law.

How is it offensive to you? If you are NOT calling for a police state, then it's not about you.

Quite. Its not about people whove upheld lockdown so much as the "pay people to grass on their neighbours and imprison people who go out to buy a bottle of cheeky non essential beer"
MagicMabel · 22/12/2020 11:08

@Carrotcakeforbreakfast
But people aren't saying 'fuck it'. I am saying let's be sensible, protect the vulnerable and let's not create even greater risk.

If you work in a hospital you will know that the NHS works at practically full capacity all year round and at over 100% capacity during the winter. Post viral syndrome isn't just a covid thing either.