To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

I don’t see many people championing the Swedish policy anymore

@queenofknives

It terrifies me. I've always highly valued liberty and autonomy. The fact some people are so willing to not only lick the boot but to deepthroat it sickens me. Its disgusting

@PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

Just a couple of things from all the different and interesting points people are making.

No I didn't think we would have been able to make big capacity increases in the NHS in nine months but I would love to see us focus on heading in that direction as quickly as we can. I still think we could have made some progress.

Long covid is real. Covid causes heart and lung damage and other issues in addition to fatigue. It isn't only post viral fatigue. Long covid should be researched and treated.

I understand that Covid is real and serious especially in the elderly and vulnerable whom I care about and want to protect.

I don't understand why this has been moved from aibu to the coronavirus topic. It was supposed deliberately to be an aibu and also about the wider impact of our policies on our society and our economy and not the disease itself.

I agree the other lock down thread is still in AIBU

Is it because this is the first vote that shows majority agree

@alreadytaken

if you really believe this bullshit and are not russian bots spreading disinformation then you must have had your heads buried in the sand all year.

1. Countries that control the virus have less economic damage.

1. Long covid is real and allowing the virus to run riot means a lot of people with life altering disability as well as more deaths.

1. Unless you inject them with something to put them out of their misery your plan would result in tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people dying with no medical care. This will include many of the cancer sufferers you claim to be concerned about.

1. Many nurses are already talking of leaving, in parts of the world health care staff have gone on strike. Apart from those who died there will be staff who no longer want to work in a health system that requires them to watch tens or hundreds of thousands die in misery.

1. No country has been able to protect the vulnerable, we are trying to do that with vaccinations.

1. The government has made a total shambles of dealing with this. As you are so concerned about businesses you probably voted for them. Pity more people didnt vote to fund the NHS properly or for a government that would have bought PPE.

Agree! Absolutely

Yes protecting the vulnerable sounds great as a binary decision but it is so much more nuanced than that and it actually difficult to achieve in the real world.

Long covid isn't just post viral fatigue at all.
Long covid who are people who have lasting complications.
People who are young and fit are having strokes, they have cardiac issues, damaged lungs or Kidneys.
Yeah there is an element of the post viral fatigue, but to just assume that's it. Shows how misinformed a lot of people on this thread are.

I've said it before. There are more than two outcomes with covid. It isn't a mild cold or death. There are lots of patients with no comorbidities requiring intensive care. If the virus run it's course there wouldn't be the facilities. That's nothing to do with how the NHS have been shafted ( which it has, I don't disagree with that) it is to do with actual common fucking sense.
Thankfully it appears people with these opinions are in the minority.
I hazard a bet they would be screaming from the rooftops if they required ITU for trauma/subarachnoid etc and there wasn't any space due to being overrun with the covid patients who need support.

I haven't read the entirety as it pisses me off too much and I won't he returning to it either.

at the end of the day its easier for a government to win an election with a tanked economy (not our fault guys - it was Covid (+Brexit but enough about that) than it is to win an election by letting up to 500,000 older/vulnerable people die of Covid. (er, sorry guys but we had to keep the economy going). Especially when literally no other country has gone so extreme.

So then you're left with
A) super strict and well-enforced lockdown and track and trace and closing airports EG, China ..... nope - can't do it and won't do it.
B) mish-mash and wait for vaccine .... yep

I agree 100% @ForestNymph but that’s not much help right now to the ambulances stacked up at A&E or the wards that are full of people all there for exactly the same disease.

Why were the hospitals not packed to capacity all summer when everyone packed out beaches in the UK and Europe? I can't understand how a pandemic goes away for a break in the middle? Makes no sense

Does it actually make no sense or does it just not make sense to you? I’m not trying to be rude but flu seasons and the reasons for it being seasonal seem to translate to covid too. There is plenty of layperson scientific information out there if you choose to look for it.

Totally agree
It's madness
Starting to believe Boris may well be compromised by the USSR(google it).

No rational person would destroy U.K. to save a few thousand over 80-90yr olds (that traditionally secretly die of normal flu anyway but the press don't report it and no one usually cares).

@alreadytaken

if you really believe this bullshit and are not russian bots spreading disinformation then you must have had your heads buried in the sand all year.

1. Countries that control the virus have less economic damage.

1. Long covid is real and allowing the virus to run riot means a lot of people with life altering disability as well as more deaths.

1. Unless you inject them with something to put them out of their misery your plan would result in tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people dying with no medical care. This will include many of the cancer sufferers you claim to be concerned about.

1. Many nurses are already talking of leaving, in parts of the world health care staff have gone on strike. Apart from those who died there will be staff who no longer want to work in a health system that requires them to watch tens or hundreds of thousands die in misery.

1. No country has been able to protect the vulnerable, we are trying to do that with vaccinations.

1. The government has made a total shambles of dealing with this. As you are so concerned about businesses you probably voted for them. Pity more people didnt vote to fund the NHS properly or for a government that would have bought PPE.

Exactly this.

Yes, I agree. Lockdowns are more about protecting politicians from criticism than protecting people. I worry that lockdowns have actually caused the ideal breeding conditions for a more infectious strain of the virus.

The problem with "following the science" is that science isn't the same as evidence, and the removal of basic rights should be as a result of evidence which would stand up in court (the criteria is that the safety of the entire population as a whole is in imminent risk and removal of rights should be for a very short period only), not as a result of "science" which varies hugely depending on which expert is being listened to.

The disaster modelling which is based on worst case scenario is wrong and repeatedly proved to be wrong. We need a long term strategy which is sustainable, not lurching from one lockdown to another, so that people lose faith in government promises that one last lockdown will save the NHS/save lives/get rid of the virus.

A part of freedom I've always valued is access to a hospital bed when I've needed one. Preferably without a high associated risk of contracting a pot dangerous disease.

Completely agree with op.

@ineedaholidaynow

I don’t see many people championing the Swedish policy anymore

You say that but over the summer their approach was probably the right one. Like pretty much every other virus, Covid is most likely going to be more rampant in the autumn and winter. Sweden might have to do things differently now but over the summer, there were still too many restrictions here and our kids should have been in school. We were asking for trouble with everyone being back in the winter.

the fuck it all lets just carry on as it nothing happens lot accuse the staggered lockdowns, social distancing of letting their emotions rule their heads .... when in fact its precisely the other way round. the fuck it all approach isn't merely stupid and electoral suicide for any government - its completely and utterly unworkable in terms of hospitals, schools etc.

I don't think Russian bots either
I think an over spill from David Icke forums.

[quote ForestNymph]@queenofknives

It terrifies me. I've always highly valued liberty and autonomy. The fact some people are so willing to not only lick the boot but to deepthroat it sickens me. Its disgusting[/quote]
It is objectively terrifying. We could lose literally everything. It is shocking to see in action what I have only read about in history books. It really does make the rise of totalitarian regimes more explicable when you realise that people want it, invite it, are enthusiastic about reporting on each other and take all their existing freedoms as absolutely granted while happily giving away rights they don't want others to have.

We don't want a police state or totalitarian UK and the fact that we have to say that is terrifying in itself.

@Carrotcakeforbreakfast

Long covid isn't just post viral fatigue at all. Long covid who are people who have lasting complications. People who are young and fit are having strokes, they have cardiac issues, damaged lungs or Kidneys. Yeah there is an element of the post viral fatigue, but to just assume that's it. Shows how misinformed a lot of people on this thread are.

I've said it before. There are more than two outcomes with covid. It isn't a mild cold or death. There are lots of patients with no comorbidities requiring intensive care. If the virus run it's course there wouldn't be the facilities. That's nothing to do with how the NHS have been shafted ( which it has, I don't disagree with that) it is to do with actual common fucking sense.
Thankfully it appears people with these opinions are in the minority.
I hazard a bet they would be screaming from the rooftops if they required ITU for trauma/subarachnoid etc and there wasn't any space due to being overrun with the covid patients who need support.

I haven't read the entirety as it pisses me off too much and I won't he returning to it either.

My daughter had respiratory arrest after a common cold and needed CPAP and a nasogastric tube for 6 months. She didn't have "long rhinovirus". She had complications after a viral infection.

It can happen with ANY virus to a minority of people. Its unfortunate but its always been a thing.

scubadive

Excellent post. We've shut down the country, destroyed lives and livelihoods and borrowed billions to publicise and attempt to fight the third largest killer. Meanwhile, we mainly leave it to charities to raise awareness and fund research into the top two killers.

Yep.
Average age of someone dying of covid (whatever that means) is 83. Life expectancy is 81.4.
I live in London and have two people with the new 'mutant' virus. Last night both were sitting up in bed watching football / Netflix with a G&T and beer. Mild cold at worse.
If I develop symptoms I wouldn't even go for a test. Seems pointless. Just self isolate and improve your handwashing etc.
According to people on here this makes me a granny killer / friend of Putin etc.

I truly believe that modern life is so risk free that we have become useless at recognising and managing risk. People's lives are so boringly safe that this is like some sort of brush with death that is very exciting to them. I really wish the BBC or whoever would actually do some journalism and look at alternative genuine scientific opinion or even look at ONS numbers for some perspective.

@MagicMabel

Yep. Average age of someone dying of covid (whatever that means) is 83. Life expectancy is 81.4. I live in London and have two people with the new 'mutant' virus. Last night both were sitting up in bed watching football / Netflix with a G&T and beer. Mild cold at worse. If I develop symptoms I wouldn't even go for a test. Seems pointless. Just self isolate and improve your handwashing etc. According to people on here this makes me a granny killer / friend of Putin etc.

I truly believe that modern life is so risk free that we have become useless at recognising and managing risk. People's lives are so boringly safe that this is like some sort of brush with death that is very exciting to them. I really wish the BBC or whoever would actually do some journalism and look at alternative genuine scientific opinion or even look at ONS numbers for some perspective.

Completely agree with the latter paragraph.

@Carrotcakeforbreakfast

I don't think Russian bots either I think an over spill from David Icke forums.

Oh not this again

I’m not familiar with the extent of the madness out there but if I thought anyone was a bot, it would be those begging for more lockdown

Most of us need to go out and get on with our lives. Some of us are - gasp - clinically vulnerable but having lived normally through previous pandemics, having had major health issues from childhood, we still had to get on with living.

It can be part of any virus you're right.
However, in my 20 years doing my job I have not seen anywhere near as many people requiring specialist care after having any other virus.

We are talking fit 20 year olds who have ended up on transplant lists.

And I know I said I wouldn't come back to this thread but I cannot help it.
It is staggering the misconceptions here.

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down. - absolutely this.

Why haven't the gov spent the billions they've thrown at everything BUT the health service, on the NHS? Protect the NHS? Clap for the NHS? How about they spend a few billions on undoing the decades of under-funding (by all governments) and dismantling the top-heavy management? Pay the actually life-savers a decent wages, and get more of them, many many more. Staff the Nightingales.

This time last year they were thinking of selling the NHS! Now it's all down to the nurses and doctors, and US to protect them? Setting US up for blame when it gets bad?
There was a thread on here yesterday blaming us all for 'spreading' it and not abiding by the Rules, whilst the OP dd was in hospital and her father couldn't visit her because Covid. I felt like shouting back - blame the Tories! Blame them for not funding the NHS, even now, properly.

Use the taxes that we will inevitably be paying, and my dc will be paying, for decades after this, on our Health service. We need more capacity, more equipment, and more nurses (not more managers!)

Oh and while they're at it, they could do something about the endemic, systemic bullying in the NHS too.

@Carrotcakeforbreakfast

It can be part of any virus you're right. However, in my 20 years doing my job I have not seen anywhere near as many people requiring specialist care after having any other virus.

We are talking fit 20 year olds who have ended up on transplant lists.

And I know I said I wouldn't come back to this thread but I cannot help it.
It is staggering the misconceptions here.

And how many 20 year olds are on the transplant list and how many never even see the inside of a hospital because they're recovering at home tucked up in bed?

How many people in hospital with covid are actually well enough to not need to be there but can't be discharged as there's nowhere for them to go?

Is this not what the nightingales should be used for?