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To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

999 replies

PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 22/12/2020 08:35

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

OP posts:
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Sonicthehedgehogg · 23/12/2020 09:30

[quote thelimitdoesnotexist]@Jourdain11 That is one of the most disgusting things I think I've ever read on here. Reported to MN.[/quote]
Preeeettyy sure she's not being serious. Grin

scubadive · 23/12/2020 09:34

@hollyangel I had exactly that last week of November and December, I was very poorly, the GP wanted to admit me but I am a single parent of 4, I kept out of hospital by twice daily visits to the GP to go on their nebuliser.

It could well have been COVID, the government insisted for ages it didn’t come into this country until Feb, then Jan, they have now finally acknowledged the first cases were November.

I wouldn’t be able to have that treatment now as the GP’s won’t let you in. My mum often has to go on her surgeries nebuliser in winter, she is in her 80’s, chromic asthma, all this over 80’s needing this sort of treatment this year will have had to go to hospital.

For all those saying the hospitals will be overwhelmed if more people get it, perhaps the GP’s could come on board and help treat people.

Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum · 23/12/2020 09:34

@TheKeatingFive

I can no longer tell what is parody and what isnt on this site. Confused
Me neither
PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 23/12/2020 09:35

@HarrietteNightingale

I seem to remember that the risk of non essential shops being open had been assessed as very low, but the decision was taken during the last lockdown to close them to send a more coherent message.

There is not, and never has been, since the first lockdown when you weren't supposed to do anything (not eager to go back to that) a coherent message, so it seems unfair that they decided to potentially put people out of business for it.

Well exactly. Are we stuffing up our economy for little or no appreciable benefit?
OP posts:
Cornettoninja · 23/12/2020 09:38

but we aren't really containing it

That’s about perspective and fundamental trust in the figures coming out of hospitals isn’t it? I believe that the measures we’re currently taking can’t not be affecting transmission (even if it’s still too high) therefore easing them will result in more infections. I’m really not able to envisage a scenario where relaxing rules around businesses would do anything but increase the numbers of sick to breaking point - both for healthcare and staffing in businesses.

At the most basic level the virus spreads through person to person contact. When all else fails the only thing that can be done is to keep people significantly apart.

EmmanuelleMakro · 23/12/2020 09:41

@Jourdain11
You post proves the OP’s point in spades.

EmmanuelleMakro · 23/12/2020 09:41

@TheKeatingFive
Complete agree.

Cornettoninja · 23/12/2020 09:42

[quote thelimitdoesnotexist]@Jourdain11 That is one of the most disgusting things I think I've ever read on here. Reported to MN.[/quote]
I’m sorry but your username and post in combination did make me laugh Wink

I know you’re upset though and fwiw I read her posts as heavily dripping in sarcasm.

Madhairday · 23/12/2020 09:43

[quote PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]@Madhairday but we aren't really containing it and our policies are sending so many small businesses to the wall. They will cause mass unemployment.

I look at some of the local businesses in my area and I feel so sorry for them. They do everything right, follow all the government guidelines and the government just pulls the rug from under them again and again. You can hear the despair when they have to cancel events at the last minute again and again. These people will end up bankcrupt and dependent on the state.

Half the time I am not convinced that these government ordered closures will have much effect on the infection rates anyway. Stopping outdoor tennis coaching during the November lockdown etc.[/quote]
I know. My family business is one of them and I have had no income since March. It sucks. But if this thing was less contained it would be even worse. Even more businesses going down with society collapsing because of NHS collapse and millions off sick in all areas - I know many more are not so sick, but a small number of a huge number is still a huge number.

We are containing it. The first lockdown brought the R number down from over 3. Imagine what it would be like if that number were still up there. Lockdown 2 began to bring it down again but people were not taking it seriously, the government being useless about schools, and then this new variant thrown into the mix - a perfect storm, really. But measures are still containing it. Not enough, but without the measures it would be unimaginable. So yes, we are containing it.

It was never about eradication and shouldn't be. I do agree with everyone here about the need to face that we do die and that we can't just stamp out every disease. But we must act when there is acute emergency that is exponential in nature, in order to try to mitigate the long term effects on society as much as we can.

Anyway. It's nearly Christmas and I'm going to spend some time with my kids rather than keep arguing on here. Merry Christmas! 🎄

Coconut49 · 23/12/2020 09:48

Agree totally with the op. I feel the priority of saving lives at all costs is wrong. We should be prioritising improving quality of life, and accepting that we are all mortal and helping people die a good death rather than prolonging someone’s life needlessly (e.g. putting 90 year old with dementia on a ventilator and then after 2 months they die anyway, with no family around etc.).

See this article - amazingly by BBC. First line - ‘Not every death is a catastrophe’

Coronavirus: Swiss count cost of surge in deaths www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55350118

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 23/12/2020 09:50

How many 90 year olds with dementia are being put on ventilators?

fungussingstheblues · 23/12/2020 09:53

The first lockdown brought the R number down from over 3. Imagine what it would be like if that number were still up there.

No, all the elderly and vulnerable people dying back in Feb/March/April is what got the R number down. It would not still be "up there" now without the further lockdowns as the overwhelming majority of people who were ever going to die from this virus did so back in the spring.

scubadive · 23/12/2020 09:56

To all the poster on here saying flu rates have dropped due to masks and social distancing, lockdown restrictions etc, why then have the government not thought this important to do previously.

A number of posters reported 22,000 flu deaths in 2018, (mainly among the elderly) why was that just accepted, no protect the elderly campaigns, no shielding advice every winter.

Why has covid shut down the economy and our society versus no such actions for the yearly flu deaths.

How many flu deaths has there been over the last 10-20 years in total, does this BBC report this daily every winter?

The governments response has been completely disproportionate.

To this who answer that it would have been far worse if they hadn’t taken action, that the government have saved us from 500,000 deaths, overwhelmed hospitals and people dying in the streets, other than flawed statistical modelling where is the evidence.

You can look all round the world for evidence that this hasn’t happened in countries who didn’t lockdown, hardly any country in the world that has a higher death per population rate than the UK so where is the evidence that our death rates would have been so much worse. Many third world countries with much worse healthcare have done better.

Most of Europe with top class healthcare and many lockdown measures have not done well with the virus.

And before people repeatedly sight our government scientisifc advisers, Chris Witty and the like, there are many, many doctors, immunologists, professors and scientific advisers with opposing views but we just do not get to hear their views on our TV every night.

Does anyone wonder when our news reporting became so linear?

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 23/12/2020 09:57

We've had masks, lockdowns, distancing etc, for all of 9 months now, and they've done nothing. The virus transmits like all respiratory illnesses, on surfaces, in the air. You cant stop it.
It's inevitable.

This pandemic has been in the making for a long time, modern medicine, extending the life span, poor food choices , lack of exercise. And boom the population is partially disabled, and quite frankly un bloody healthy. We are the sick man of Europe. Most of this is self inflicted, 75% of Britons are either obese of overweight, or way past the 3 score and 10.

So much so, that people are unable to give themselves basic care like going to the toilet or feed themselves. Some people don't even know who they are. This is in fact a recent phenomena, previously people died earlier, and not in the decrepit state we have now.
I think in the future we need to look at palliative care rather pumping people full of drugs to keep them alive, along with extending the care from families via the use of carers. It's been a costly mistake in the end. We wouldn't treat an animal like this so why the obsession from the public and medical science on extending life at any cost. Including complete decimation of the wealth, health, education, and society underneath.
And we have the gall to compare ourselves to other nations, Jesus wept, we have an epidemic of unhealthy people, especially, comparatively to the Far East, our mental and physical health strategy is in dire need of serious introspective public discourse. It's a mess, a costly mess created by a lack of accountability on a personal and governmental level.

Add that to the fact the general person on the street has no resilience whatsoever, just people complaining and crying with hysteria every where. Certainly on social media...............

Economically, the boomer generation, generally those making the most noise are also sitting on 5.5 tn worth of assets thanks in the main to the 10-15% compound interest gained over the lifetime of owning properties. Demanding the sacrifice of those born and those not born is a clear case of selfish interest before everyone else. It's appalling.

This pandemic is an example of the swiss cheese effect, a perfect storm of circumstances all combining to present an ethical dilemma, the Trolley dilemma. Who do we save?
This over reactive scorched earth policy is reeking havoc amongst society, I know we don't wish to see death, however for a 100% of all people it is inevitable. It's an uncomfortable truth.

Facts based on uncomplete data are often thrown around to be used as evidence to support an argument.
What's interesting is, the Inacrc data does not tie in the government message, according to witty and co we were going to be overwhelmed in September. It never happened did it..
The only one true fact is we all die sooner or later, but at what consequence to everyone else.

Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum · 23/12/2020 09:58

@Delatron

We’re not vaccinating at nearly the speed we need to. Why is this? Agree divert testing capacity to vaccinations or get the army in?
The army are behind the scenes helping already and that will ramp up more once the oxford vaccine is allowed to be used.

The network of gps, nurses, pharmacists that gives the flu jab every year will also be working in overdrive from January.

Man power isn't slowing the vaccination program. It is the whole temperature and fragility of this first vaccine that is the issue. The oxford one doesn't have those problems.

rumandbiscuits · 23/12/2020 09:59

I completely agree with you OP. None of how this pandemic has been handled makes any sense to me what so ever.

PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 23/12/2020 10:00

@scubadive it is the same for air pollution. We apparently have around 40,000 deaths a year which we could substantially reduce by removing diesel vehicles.

OP posts:
Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum · 23/12/2020 10:07

Personally I think we have no choice but to have some restrictions to slow the virus.

However there are some bloody stupid rules that make no sense and others that probably make the spread worse not better.

hollyangel · 23/12/2020 10:08

@madhairday I'm sorry you've lost your income. That must be very tough. I don't think we're going to agree on the right strategy for this, but I appreciate that we could have a mature discussion about it, I'm sorely lacking this in the real world as no one wants to discuss anything and is just happy to go along with what they're told.
I think this is such a huge decision for our society that we need to be able to freely ask questions and debate.
Merry Christmas!

PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 23/12/2020 10:13

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum I am in favour of mitigation measures that don't require businesses to close. I would be in favour of a return to 2m social distancing in indoor spaces. We didn't even try this before closing non essential shops.

The high street near me is starting to look quite boarded up as shops close. It's been good for Amazon I suppose.

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 23/12/2020 10:14

"Surrender our freedom " is possibly the funniest and most ridiculous thing I've read today. But the day is yet young. I suspect there's more.
No, I don't like this shit either and I wish we could go back to normal.

willsantausesantatize · 23/12/2020 10:16

@Hrpuffnstuff1

We've had masks, lockdowns, distancing etc, for all of 9 months now, and they've done nothing. The virus transmits like all respiratory illnesses, on surfaces, in the air. You cant stop it. It's inevitable.

This pandemic has been in the making for a long time, modern medicine, extending the life span, poor food choices , lack of exercise. And boom the population is partially disabled, and quite frankly un bloody healthy. We are the sick man of Europe. Most of this is self inflicted, 75% of Britons are either obese of overweight, or way past the 3 score and 10.

So much so, that people are unable to give themselves basic care like going to the toilet or feed themselves. Some people don't even know who they are. This is in fact a recent phenomena, previously people died earlier, and not in the decrepit state we have now.
I think in the future we need to look at palliative care rather pumping people full of drugs to keep them alive, along with extending the care from families via the use of carers. It's been a costly mistake in the end. We wouldn't treat an animal like this so why the obsession from the public and medical science on extending life at any cost. Including complete decimation of the wealth, health, education, and society underneath.
And we have the gall to compare ourselves to other nations, Jesus wept, we have an epidemic of unhealthy people, especially, comparatively to the Far East, our mental and physical health strategy is in dire need of serious introspective public discourse. It's a mess, a costly mess created by a lack of accountability on a personal and governmental level.

Add that to the fact the general person on the street has no resilience whatsoever, just people complaining and crying with hysteria every where. Certainly on social media...............

Economically, the boomer generation, generally those making the most noise are also sitting on 5.5 tn worth of assets thanks in the main to the 10-15% compound interest gained over the lifetime of owning properties. Demanding the sacrifice of those born and those not born is a clear case of selfish interest before everyone else. It's appalling.

This pandemic is an example of the swiss cheese effect, a perfect storm of circumstances all combining to present an ethical dilemma, the Trolley dilemma. Who do we save?
This over reactive scorched earth policy is reeking havoc amongst society, I know we don't wish to see death, however for a 100% of all people it is inevitable. It's an uncomfortable truth.

Facts based on uncomplete data are often thrown around to be used as evidence to support an argument.
What's interesting is, the Inacrc data does not tie in the government message, according to witty and co we were going to be overwhelmed in September. It never happened did it..
The only one true fact is we all die sooner or later, but at what consequence to everyone else.

Long post there. I agree with a lot of it but asking family to care for family is ok in practice but not in theory as people have to work to pay bills or don't have room for relatives to live with them. I know many do care for elderly relatives but the majority end up in residental care eventually as you would need to give up your life to them and not everyone can or will do this. Lots you write is true though. Makes me depressed as I age. Plus not all' boomers' are rich ( just the ones I know! ) some haven't a clue about how hard it is for the young on today's world. Not all , but many are a bit blinkered at times. It's an uneven world.
Cornettoninja · 23/12/2020 10:19

I would be in favour of a return to 2m social distancing in indoor spaces. We didn't even try this before closing non essential shops

This just isn’t true. The 2m/6ft distancing has been in place since summer and has never been rescinded.

I can’t comment on what people are actually doing irl nationwide but this has been in place for a long time. If people aren’t adhering to it then what’s left to do?

snowisfallingallaroundus · 23/12/2020 10:22

@RandomLondoner

How many lives have been saved by our policies?

Given how infectious it is, without action, nearly everyone would eventually get it.

The population size is about 67 million. The death rate from those who get it is about 1%. That means about 670 thousand will die if we let everyone get it. Roughly 67 thousand have died so far.

So far our policies have kept alive about 90% of those it might kill.

People don't get that fact, unfortunately. But you've nailed it.

Diana22 · 23/12/2020 10:23

From Melbourne, Australia.
We were in was in a tiny pocket of hotspot Covid-19 from March until November.
The restrictions were harsh.
For 7.5 months we had home schooling and no visitors at all or leaving our area beyond 5 km. We were inside for the entirety of Autumn and Winter.
No school, nothing at all. I understand that it is a different landscape but it was still very harsh.
My family were extremely impacted by the restrictions. We got through it.
Good wishes to to our UK friends.
I feel for you so much that you have to endure this over Christmas.

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