To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

When you compare us to nations that took little to no precautions (Sweden, USA), we are still in the same boat as them. Makes me think that all of the sacrifices have been pointless.

@scubadive

we should just let everyone die from dementia then and ignore heart disease, cancer etc and not bother putting any money into research. If everyone had that attitude we would never have discovered penicillin.

Penicillin - the wonder drug for communicable bacterial diseases. As I was saying, you cannot compare contagious and non-contagious conditions, and you respond saying if we focus on contagious disease we would never have discovered penicillin?

Dementia is a long term problem that requires scientific research, not immediate beds in a ward. I really don’t see how spending a year fighting COVID means we don’t care about dementia. In any case research crosses diseases - the BioNTech vaccine comes from what was originally cancer research.

For every 1000 people in the UK more than 1 person has died just from covid...

We have 66 million population and around 68000 deaths so far...
1 in 1000 imagine if not controls were in place - that number is heartbreaking already!

@HeIsAVeryBadBoy

When you compare us to nations that took little to no precautions (Sweden, USA), we are still in the same boat as them. Makes me think that all of the sacrifices have been pointless.

The USA and Sweden have taken precautions.

Why are people calculating the deaths based on the whole population? Shouldn’t it be deaths out of the number of positive cases? I’m not sure, but I did a quick search and if we have approx 80,000 deaths due to covid out and 2 million have so far tested positive, then that’s a death rate of approximately 4%. I know there are some cases where people have had no symptoms so haven’t tested, but either way we shouldn’t be looking at the number of deaths out of a population of 66million as only a very tiny amount of people have actually had covid.
Is that right or am I looking at it wrong?

@Mumof3andlovingit

Why are people calculating the deaths based on the whole population? Shouldn’t it be deaths out of the number of positive cases? I’m not sure, but I did a quick search and if we have approx 80,000 deaths due to covid out and 2 million have so far tested positive, then that’s a death rate of approximately 4%. I know there are some cases where people have had no symptoms so haven’t tested, but either way we shouldn’t be looking at the number of deaths out of a population of 66million as only a very tiny amount of people have actually had covid. Is that right or am I looking at it wrong?

I explain the difference between the case fatality ratio and the infection fatality ration upthread.

Death rate is nowhere near 4% - as an average it is between 0.4 - 0.6% - see the WHO and centre for evidence based medicine.

@Chessie678 well, using me as an example, when the government lifted restrictions and I was able to, i went out to cafes and restaurants and the cinema and the hairdressers. I have even flown this year- to germany to attend my DH's grandmother's funeral (died peacefully in her sleep in a carehome). I have been to mini-breaks in stratford upon avon, brighton and cambridge this year when I was permitted to travel. at the same time, when london was under tier 2 and I could travel within tier 2, i could not visit my MIL for Hanukkah celebrations as I usually do every year so we had to give that up. In other words, if there is no lockdown, i live my life while wearing a mask and social distancing. but in a poll, i would tick that I support lockdown given that there is a rise of cases. And if a lockdown is introduced, I would not go out.

Indeed since London came under tier 4, I have not been out of the house even for a walk. I planned to meet my family for the holidays perhaps not christmas as it is a fast day for my MIL and SIL but definitely boxing day. Sadly we would not meet. Maybe we wouldn't meet next christmas either, but one day this pandemic would end. Meanwhile, I would listen to the experts.

@madhairday I don't think that BMJ article has much data to work off, it looks like it only focuses on a very small sample of people. We won't truly know suicide figures until next year.

That article does also say the following about the impact of an economic crisis on suicide rates. Can you imagine how bad the next economic crisis will be?

''Of greatest concern, is the effect of economic damage from the pandemic. One study reported that after the 2008 economic crisis, rates of suicide increased in two thirds of the 54 countries studied, particularly among men and in countries with higher job losses.''

I've seen a number of articles from paramedics and emergency room doctors saying that they can see an increase in suicide attempts already. See image attached that mentions a nearly doubling in daily suicide attempts from 22 to 37 per day on their watch.

www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/newsbeat-54740033

@HeIsAVeryBadBoy

When you compare us to nations that took little to no precautions (Sweden, USA), we are still in the same boat as them. Makes me think that all of the sacrifices have been pointless.

That’s news to my relatives in California who have been under lockdown for much of the year. There’s been plenty of response in the US although it varies state by state.

What is getting to me is that if you question more lockdowns, masks, more restrictions you are painted as a Trump loving Covid -denier anti Vaxx nutter...when what you are actually saying is, OK, we did that, in March and April, we gave lockdown a good go, but now we need to move forward from it and do something else because this is not sustainable.
I'm also not convinced it works to control the virus as the minute everything re-opens again everywhere is so crowded. The whole way it has all been handled is just insane. Everything was really opened up in June/July, and there were low numbers all through the Summer...then they send all the kids back to schools (thank God, they needed to be back) but with no extra help or money for schools and teachers or space, and of course the rates are going to go up again.
We have to get a sense of perspective, and balance the risk against everything else that lockdown is affecting. For me, my DP is now out of work (I can't actually think about this it's too stressful), half my friends are out of work, we can't move house to a bigger place that we desperately need. This impacting on our stress levels, and I have one child with increasing anxiety levels and depression.
I am now looking at more home schooling, and the worst part is that they SAY "it's just for a week", but it bloody won't be will it?? I have realised that I feel so tense all the time at the way these things keep getting sprung on us, xmas changed with no warning, schools open, schools closed, shops open, shops closed. I am extremely resilient, and even I am cracking up with it all.
As for "hospitals will have to choose who to treat"..yeah, They already do! My sick relative was basically shunted onto the Liverpool Care Pathway, even though they were not that ill initially, and left to die aged under 70.
I think that one of the things that really brought home to me how divided this country is by wealth and class was reading MN during the proper crazy months, all those threads about not leaving the house for more than an hour and not buying non essentials..written by people who could work at home and had a big garden! Anyone I know who has kept working throughout, or lives in a less than perfect place, has been trying to live as normal a life as possible for months.
So, yes, the world has apparently gone insane and I think it's taking me with it..

@Frankly321 but some people can't wfh. DH and I both can wfh but not everyone can. Tradesmen. People who provide house removal services (if someone gets evicted by landlord which was happening during the height of the pandemic, they would need to move). Neither are classed as essential workers

It even says in the guidance that you can leave the house for work purposes during lockdown. And walks in the park are permitted.

I agree that people should be able to go about their business ONLY IF they agree not to go to hospital if they catch it

As long as you arent shocked when they ask for their NI back. The NHS is not a charity despte the huge effort there has been this year to portray it as such.

I also agree with the OP.

@PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

Utter nonsense.
Lock down now. The economy will come back and the debt will not be a long term worry as

1. International debt is BS anyway.
2. All countries are a the same relative mess

Im willing to bet the stress we are all being put through is contributing to the rise in infections. Its well known that stress lowers immunity. Something the Government and scientists are very reluctant to factor in.

How are they supposed to factor "stress" in and what difference would it make?

@MercyBooth

I agree that people should be able to go about their business ONLY IF they agree not to go to hospital if they catch it

As long as you arent shocked when they ask for their NI back. The NHS is not a charity despte the huge effort there has been this year to portray it as such.

I also agree with the OP.

I'm so surprised Mercy Booth agrees with the OP! (Not really.)

We should have locked down China style I now have great respect for the country

You have great respect for China?? The country that got us into this shit storm in the first place?

For what it’s worth I completely agree with you OP - it’s utter madness.

[quote Frankly321]@IfNotNow12

We are only in this situation because too many people are not following the rules and are going out numerous times per day for non essential reasons and shopping for unnecessary items.

Frankly I think it's reached the stage where we need the army in the streets issuing £5000 fines to people who 'absolutely have to' visit the range or take their kid to the park.

We need a total lockdown until at least Easter because there are too many selfish people who are clearly not key workers but persist in leaving home constantly.[/quote]
I honestly cant tell if you are serious with all these posts or just winding people up

What you are advocating is the Swedish model (going for herd immunity). They are now, basically, fucked. I'll forgive you your ignorance if you read this www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/20/as-covid-death-toll-soars-ever-higher-sweden-wonders-who-to-blame then return to the thread and apologise for spreading a false narrative.

@Collaborate this article does next to nothing to advance your argument I’m afraid. It contains very little critical analysis or in depth research, barely any proper comparison between Sweden and other countries and reads more like an opinion piece than anything else. Bizarre.

Frankly I think it's reached the stage where we need the army in the streets issuing £5000 fines to people who 'absolutely have to' visit the range or take their kid to the park.

I think an automatic criminal record would be a good deterrent too. People who take their children to the shops unnecessarily should have them removed by Social Services. A community network should be set up with financial incentives for those who report on their neighbours and friends who are flouting the rules.

@Frankly321do you think we should also fine people for going to hospital? Seeing as between 10-23% of cases are contracted there.

[quote Frankly321]@IfNotNow12

We are only in this situation because too many people are not following the rules and are going out numerous times per day for non essential reasons and shopping for unnecessary items.

Frankly I think it's reached the stage where we need the army in the streets issuing £5000 fines to people who 'absolutely have to' visit the range or take their kid to the park.

We need a total lockdown until at least Easter because there are too many selfish people who are clearly not key workers but persist in leaving home constantly.[/quote]
Of course we're not. We're in this mess because it's a virus that was rife before we did anything about it; the govt have been slow to act on all fronts and half the time it's such a mild illness people don't even know they have it.

We need to stop mass testing and utilise that network of testing centres and staff to vaccinate instead. If we can report that 37,000 people a day have tested positive for coronavirus we can be vaccinating that number of people through the same network.

I’m sick of the scaremongering and restrictions and want to see some positive action from the government on the vaccine which they have long touted as they way out of this. What are they waiting for? Utilising testing centres alongside medical hubs is the way out of this.

I would much rather see daily reporting on the number of vaccines given out rather than the number of positive CV tests!