To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

No, it's more like abusers offering excuses for their actions

@eeeyulesmiles

People whose behaviour makes the virus spread more, like by casually going in and out of friends houses, having parties etc.) make lockdowns more likely (with all the side effects like putting people more at risk of domestic violence and damaging businesses).

It doesn't matter how much you say lockdowns are bad. If you have lots of avoidable close contacts with other people just for fun, you are choosing to make lockdowns more likely. Actions speak louder than words.

Anyone priding themselves on 'not being a sheep', and breaking all the rules, should bear that in mind.

The people who accept the need for a lockdown and follow the rules are actually the ones taking practical steps to avoid longer lockdowns.

I think those doing it for fun were a small minority.

I think the people going out of their houses were going out to pay the rent or put food on the table, or be evicted or starve. Usually going out to exactly the kinds of environments where Covid spread was high risk eg food production factories, mini cab driver, delivery drivers etc. The kinds of services that enabled those with financial cushions to stay at home.

Not receiving support or sick pay if they had symptoms and thus not complying with self isolation because, you know, destitution.

It's interesting the hysteria around a virus that kills wealthy westerners including large numbers of white people.

Other diseases which kill poor people in developing countries such as malaria don't "shut the world". Malaria killed over 400,000 people in 2019.

Covid has obviously killed more in one year although cumulatively malaria's total will be far larger as it has been around so long.

But then malaria kills children in large numbers and there is less money to be made from saving poor black children.

Thankfully a vaccine for this disease looks likely and is starting phase 3 trials.

Makes you think.

@ShirleyPhallus you may argue some never had any perspective to start with. Certainly brought them out of the woodwork.

Of course "the virus will continue to spread whatever we do" No one ever suggested otherwise. It would have been worse if we didn't do these things.

@BrokenBaskets yep. All these people calling for military-style lockdown and screaming "selfish" at anyone who dares to want their normal life back... I doubt they were donating their spare money to Africa to save children from river blindness/malaria/cholera. The people who are most pro-lockdown are almost certainly those either at risk from covid or with someone close to them who is. I get it, you are putting yourself and your family first and not giving much thought to people you don't personally know. But why are you surprised when people not at risk from covid, but at risk of mental health episodes/bankruptcy/unemployment are doing exactly the same thing?

@Delatron

Just read a report on the huge increase in domestic violence too during lockdown. Another thing that doesn’t matter since it’s not bloody COVID.

And because 99% of the victims are female.

@vickyp0llard because it's so senseless? Normal life isnt possible in a pandemic whatever you do. Not taking steps to slow spread isnt going to deliver normality- in the NHS, in schools, anywhere.

If the government had implemented a strict lockdown all year where no-one leaves home unless a key worker (enforced by the army and £5000 fines), 315 healthy parents and grandparents would have survived

Hmm and I wonder how many suicides there would have been. Are you seriously suggesting we should have been locked down from March until now?

[quote Frankly321]@Flyonawalk

Hell is losing a loved one or seeing them permanently disabled by long COVID.

It is certainly not the 'restrictions' here which have been like a holiday camp.

We need a total lockdown now until Easter to save lives. No one leaves home unless a key worker.

Life has changed permanently- a vaccine will not bring back concerts or family gatherings.

We cannot put our children at risk of long COVID.[/quote]
If there were no other illnesses in the world you might have part of a point. But people need other treatment.

And if you lock everyone away in their homes, they'll get get fat and die of type II diabetes and various other obesity-related conditions.

I've said from the very outset of this that there has to be a balance. Your view is a very long way from a sensible balance, it's not balanced at all.

[quote Porcupineinwaiting]@vickyp0llard because it's so senseless? Normal life isnt possible in a pandemic whatever you do. Not taking steps to slow spread isnt going to deliver normality- in the NHS, in schools, anywhere.[/quote]
There was pretty much normal life in the last pandemic - I remember it well! But no one was able to WFH, no social media etc etc so people had to go out.

And no one is saying there should not have been steps taken - some of us believe the steps taken were too extreme.

@BrokenBaskets

It's interesting the hysteria around a virus that kills wealthy westerners including large numbers of white people.

Other diseases which kill poor people in developing countries such as malaria don't "shut the world". Malaria killed over 400,000 people in 2019.

Covid has obviously killed more in one year although cumulatively malaria's total will be far larger as it has been around so long.

But then malaria kills children in large numbers and there is less money to be made from saving poor black children.

Thankfully a vaccine for this disease looks likely and is starting phase 3 trials.

Makes you think.

Well as far as the UK is concerned I'd expect more money/effort to be spent saving people here than in some other country,. Even if they are only white people.

but we do spend money on it. Apparently the UK is the second-largest public funder of global health R&D after the US and we do put money into combatting malaria.

If I get locked in my flat with my dog until Easter, can I have Frankly321’s address to post all the dog shit to please.

Hell is losing a loved one or seeing them permanently disabled by long COVID. It is certainly not the 'restrictions' here which have been like a holiday camp.

Have you ever been so poor that you can't feed your children? Or have someone close to you commit suicide because they can't cope anymore? Or been so lonely but unable to see anyone to alleviate that with no end in sight? Or lose someone to cancer because their GP doesn't give a shit? Or do you genuinely think that Covid is the only hell there is?

@vickyp0llard

People whose behaviour makes the virus spread more, like by casually going in and out of friends houses, having parties etc.) make lockdowns more likely

I'm sorry but people are not responsible for the batshit response of the government. Saying "you caused this by going out to Ikea and meeting your mates indoors" is like blaming victims for the actions of their abusers.

You keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

But let's cut out the middle man (the government). The more covid is circulating, the harder it is for people to get surgery or cancer treatment because those things become more dangerous if the patients catch covid at the same time. Nothing to do with lockdowns, it's simply more dangerous, directly because of the virus.

So anyone who thinks they're sticking it to the man by breaking the rules and meeting their mates indoors, and helping to spread the virus, is contributing to delays to cancer treatment. Individually only in a tiny way, but collectively potentially a lot more. Not something that would make me feel great about myself, personally.

I do agree that lots of the spread is not down to people casually breaking the rules. But some is, and it's infuriating to read those people then complaining about the side effects of covid or the restrictions, when they're behaving in a way that makes those things more likely.

We know that there are around 315 people under 60 with no health conditions who have died of COVID. That is 315 people leaving behind DC and partners. These people are collateral damage in the far-right prioritisation of the economy over lives. If the government had implemented a strict lockdown all year where no-one leaves home unless a key worker (enforced by the army and £5000 fines), 315 healthy parents and grandparents would have survived

So let me get this right... we lock down nigh on 67 million mostly healthy people for the best part of a year in order to save 315 lives?
I’m assuming you’re a troll as the alternative - that some people genuinely think this way - is just utterly terrifying.

Although I am not involved in the scientific advise, I am a scientist and I therefore find it quite offensive when the assumption is that the advise is not affected by considerations on mental health, DV, long term economic impacts

Scientists are humans you know. And typically they are not stupid.

Frankly321

Last year 140,000 people, mostly children died of measles. That's 140,000 lives lost, potential parents, grandparents, scientists, lovers, smilers, farmers...
A vaccine costs about 50p according to MSF.

They, if any people in the world, are 'they collateral damage in the far-right prioritisation of the economy over lives.'

As you put it.

Just because people are questioning the rules and the wider future impact they may have on lives for generations does not mean they are breaking them, or meeting their mates indoors to ‘stick it to the man’.

"We should have a police state and then we might respect the rules of lockdown. Everyone in isolation should wear tags which are applied and then released by the police. People arriving at airports should be tested properly and isolated properly. Wuhan is back to normal. Our half arsed liberalism has ruined this country.

Read the threads about people breaking lockdown on this site. Is it alright to have a party on the street and let the children play together? No it friggin isn’t"

" I am now all together more relaxed if we do loose democracy because the actions of so many on here and the success of authoritarian governments shows you simply cannot trust the people to do the right thing."

Jesus fucking Christ. What am I reading on here? Are people having a laugh or have they actually gone insane?
OP I agree with you, and every other sensible person this thread.

@outofthemoon so by donating about £160 to charity, that poster could have saved more healthy, under 60's lives than the entire UK staying in full army lockdown for a year. Yet that's the option they suggested we do. Batshit. Unless of course, lives of poor brown people abroad aren't as important as white British ones?

@SkySports

I think we live in a country where keeping everyone alive at all costs trumps everything else. We have forgotten that death is the natural order. We keep people alive with very severe dementia. We have people clinging to live my the fingertips regardless of the quality of that life. Then along comes a virus that will tip those very vulnerable over the edge, it will mean not enough beds to care for all of these people let alone the rest of the population. So we shut down society, business and schools. Other things suffer but they matter not.....everything is about covid abs covid alone.

Obsession with covid. Yes we are insane.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

There's no point engaging with

Frankly321, it's just derailing the thread. There's no chance they're being serious.

I do wonder if 'fresh legs' are needed at this stage of the pandemic. A new health sec and maybe some new advisors. People who aren't quite so invested in the current (failing imho) approach and who might look to see if there are other options. Wouldn't normally suggest this in the middle of a crisis but I am not sure those in charge are still able to think clearly on this. It is too much for them. Time for them to bring other voices around the table.

Yes - I agree. I feel that our leaders are trapped in the sunk-cost fallacy, they're poured so much into lockdown/furlough they are probably too invested and too proud to back away from a failing approach.

Yes, completely agree with you both.

@BrokenBaskets

It's interesting the hysteria around a virus that kills wealthy westerners including large numbers of white people.

Other diseases which kill poor people in developing countries such as malaria don't "shut the world". Malaria killed over 400,000 people in 2019.

Covid has obviously killed more in one year although cumulatively malaria's total will be far larger as it has been around so long.

But then malaria kills children in large numbers and there is less money to be made from saving poor black children.

Thankfully a vaccine for this disease looks likely and is starting phase 3 trials.

Makes you think.

Exactly this. The world has not shut down for disease and viruses that run rampant in poorer countries that kills young and old alike. Also in many cultures, South American countries as an example, death is something not to be afraid of. They accept it and celebrate it amongst their elderly folk.