To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

@hamstersarse The government are incompitent. Almsot everyoone in the country are critisizing them. Your comment is daft. Anyone who thinks they know better than scientists, economists and statisticians when they barely have an Alevel in science is clearly an idiot or conspiracy theorist (or both).

@NotOfThisWorld There's no need to be rude. If you disagree, that's ok.

Lots of people on this thread are sharing their opinions and I really value the ability to discuss things without anyone being labelled a Crazy Covid-denier or an anti-vaxxer.

Completely agree OP. Practically everyone I know
and discuss this with feel like this too. We are definitely in the fed up/ this has all gone too far/ we’ve complied with rules thus far but are now sick of it/ it’s all far too OTT to impose these draconian rules on everyone camp.

@Oliversmumsarmy

The fatality rate is around 1%, if everyone in the UK caught it then that would be c. 680k deaths

But most people wouldn’t catch it. It’s a virus. Like Spanish flu not everyone caught it as there comes a point the virus kills so many and those that survive are immune so it has no where to go.

How many deaths do you think this virus will ultimately be responsible for. The cancer patients who can’t access treatment or testing, the suicides when people realise they have lost everything. The rise in dementia cases because people can’t get out and be socially active and many many more people who die because of reasons associated with this virus.

The figures I don’t think will ever be known. But I reckon it wouldn’t be much difference to if we just got on with things.

I know Dmil in moments of clarity wants to die. She hates her life. When she got Covid she hoped she would not recover as she isn’t living. But she hardly got sick.

But you're missing the point. The lockdowns are primarily not about the deaths, they're about being able to deal with the number of hospital patients.

What happens to those same cancer patients you talk about when there are zero beds and routine care including cancer treatment is cancelled to deal with A&E cases?

Not to mention the fact that those people with cancer you talk about are the ones that are most likely to die from catching COVID so how does letting it run through society help them?

I can tell you now that people with cancer generally do not want COVID running free because it's an even worse situation for them.

I'm a psychologist and I disagree that you can salvage child development so easily. Yes, it is not about studying an Inspector Calls that is the problem, but the multitude of developmental needs children have, including free play, that can have lasting and possibly permanent damage.

Agree

I agree with @Oliversmumsarmy

We’re assuming everyone would get the virus, and pretty much all at the same time. They wouldn’t.

Locking down and opening up (at the wrong times ime) is causing spikes after we all hide away then go crazy mixing together. Quite often rates are falling just before the lockdown (as was the case in March) the virus will have natural peaks and troughs.

I’m for sustainable long term measures that don’t impact mental health. That don’t trash the economy and people’s livelihoods. I’d also support personal responsibility..Support those that want to shield. Allow those that are healthy to get on with it.

Have we done enough protect care homes and hospitals? Do they have shit hot infection controls?

I also agree with the poster who said we need to understand the genetic element to this. Entire families often suffer whilst at the same time I’ve heard of stories where entire care homes are hit and all survive.

Current strategy isn’t working as a long term plan. WHO doesn’t support lockdowns as a long term strategy.

[quote MummaBear4321]@MarshaBradyo I am a teacher. Trust me. It can be salvaged.

Also, for older kids, missing out on studying An Inspector Calls in year 10 wont effect their job prospects in 5 years time, believe me. Younger kids, yes, it will hit their reading and writing, but it can be salvaged by parents spending some time every evening doing some work with them. Its fixable. Lets face it, 30 mins with a parent is probably more 1 to 1 time than they get daily in school.[/quote]
I've said this on another thread - my mum is a governor of a hugely posh middle class primary and also an ex-teacher.

She was telling me on the phone the other day that they looked at attainment measures - normal would be 80% expected - not sure of the specific tests or whatever ( not a teacher obviously!) - and they were getting 20 -30%.

This is in a school with very invested parents, all have access to devices and Wifi etc. She was saying to me what do think is happening in mored proved schools - she was so shocked.

• more impoverished

@PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

Agree with every word

@umpteennamechanges

If we took this approach within weeks we would have scenes of people dying with no dignity in hospital corridors.

People of all ages (including children) dying from perfectly treatable illnesses and accidents because there aren't any beds or enough staff to treat them.

Would everyone in favour be okay with this?

When we start to get scenes on the news of parents who've lost their children because their accident that would have just been a 'close call' have died in the corridor waiting for any available medical staff?

Corpses being found days later at home because an ambulance was called but never arrived

Would you just shrug your shoulders and say 'well, that was the best decision'?

What if it was your child that died after an accident because the hospital was swamped and no staff were available?

Would you really think the Govt had made the right call?

I find that hard to believe...

Your predictions are so OTT, perhaps you enjoy the drama. I have in laws living in the developing world where masks are not mandatory and people are visiting each other... AND the health system has not collapse! Both my SILs have had cancer treatment this year and are doing ok. I expect a rich country like the UK to be able to manage covid along with other illnesses, no?

@hollyangel

I read this article on the BBC about Coronovirus in Africa. Surely this disagrees with the theory that there would be bodies piled on the streets with no lockdown?

Zero lockdown in Soweto and no massive spike in deaths.

www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55333126

Also Sweden. Would any of the medical
Professionals on the the thread be able to explain why a country like Sweden with v little restrictions and no mandated mask wearing have broadly the same deaths per capita as other countries who've spent billions, enforced masks and had severe lockdowns?

Sweden has much higher deaths per capita than the other Nordic countries that have the most similar make up and the Swedish PM has said himself that they made a mistake by not taking it seriously enough.

@notofthisworld

Obviously Africa is very different to the UK, but I just felt the experts in it were also baffled by the low death rates with zero lockdowns. It's an interesting article.

Talk to me about Sweden then? Why are their deaths so similar to the rest of Europe?

@hamstersarse I completely agree funny enough. I have two pre school kids and I cant even begin to think about what they are missing out on developmentally from not seeing anyone bar me or DH. However, with my comment I took education in the traditional sense, which can be salvaged. To fix social and development issues they need to open up to family and friends again, not just schools staying open, as preschool kids need socialising as much as 7 year olds. I feel the focus has been all on school, and every human under the age of 4 just has been forgotten.

@umpteennamechanges I've looked at their comparison to the other Nordic countries and it's true, there is a major difference.

But what will happen when the elderly in Nordic countries who have been artificially shielded are finally exposed to a Winter virus or bug?

Also, why are Sweden's deaths broadly the same as the UK, Spain, France and lower than Italy? Without spending billions and ruining their economy. Factually, any country that has spent billions on its Covid response will not have the funds to invest in their own health service over the coming years, which will also lead to deaths.

Why do those deaths not matter too?

I completely agree OP. It’s not just the economic impact either, it is the mental health consequences which will be felt for years to come. Many children are going to be affected by this for the rest of their lives.

It looks like we’re on our way to a near enough blanket tier 4 in the new year and it looks like there’s a strong possibility of school closure.

People are behaving a deranged manner. If someone says they can’t wear a mask, they’re basically branded a killer and told they either wear one or live in an hermetically sealed box. People think it’s ok people are left isolated. Cancer treatments postponed/cancer left undiagnosed. People losing jobs left right and centre. Group exercise stopped. The people of this country have never been so unfit probably.

I’m in no way shape or form a conspiracy theorists but quite frankly the response has been so irrational you can see why those ideas spread.

I’ve had COVID, I realise it’s awful, I’ve known someone die from it. But I’ve also had many other diseases. I’ve known a lot of people did from cancer, car crashes, heart attacks, embolisms and plane crashes.

I realise many of the measures are to protect he health services, but I think the measures need to be targeted at those who are likely to get seriously ill or die from the disease.

I also think exam years are at risk of being failed, for different reasons but just as strong.

But overall I see children have no voice and not even adults around them are willing to put them first.

missymousey listen to Nick Ferrari LBC, he definitely agrees and shares our feelings on this.

I’d say people in this country are split 30% our camp- not Covid deniers but just had enough of it all, still happy to socialise/ mix while taking the adequate precautions. 30% total rule obeyers of everything the government imposes, barely mix with anyone at all, very worried. The final 20% extremes one way or another- either Covid-deniers who have never complied with any rules or so petrified/ paranoid they don’t leave the house.

People aren't insane. They just don't necessarily have the same priorities as you and other posters on this thread. Not everyone at risk is elderly. I know a couple of people of working age who were hospitalised and also a few people with long term covid. I also know people whose treatment for other conditions has been delayed because it would massively increase their risk of catching it. Letting cases surge will mean people are even less likely to get treatment for other conditions. There is no way of saving the economy anyway so I'd rather go for the option that doesn't increase deaths or life changing illness from Covid or other disease.

How many deaths do you think this virus will ultimately be responsible for. The cancer patients who can’t access treatment or testing, the suicides when people realise they have lost everything. The rise in dementia cases because people can’t get out and be socially active and many many more people who die because of reasons associated with this virus.The figures I don’t think will ever be known. But I reckon it wouldn’t be much difference to if we just got on with things.

But can you really not see that 'if we just got on with things' all these numbers would be far, far worse? The cancer deaths worse because if covid is allowed to spread freely the health services would be even less able to treat, let alone diagnose? Suicides worse because of multiple factors arising from a society where a virus spirals out of control and so affects every part, further decimating mental health services? Why on earth do you think that 'if we just get on with it' these issues would magically become lesser? It just makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain, because I'm seriously depressed at the lack of critical thinking here, and I am willing to be wrong if someone comes along with a good argument for why all these issues would suddenly die down if we allowed an exponentially growing virus to burn freely.

To me it's like saying, oh dear that house is on fire but it's only got a few elderly and sick people in it, besides it would use resources to put it out and affect the economy badly. And then when the fire spreads to the next house, it's oh we can't put it out because it costs too much and because those people don't really matter. And then it spreads because we refuse to do anything and suddenly everything spirals out of control.

I'm so, so baffled and I would really like to hear an argument that doesn't a/ use false or misleading information (ie no excess deaths, no more than flu, no young people dying, long covid is just PVS) and b/ use anecdata - I don't know anyone with covid, I know more people who have taken their own lives, my hospital isn't struggling.

I'd like to see some evidence based, peer reviewed science that backs up your position. And that doesn't mean the Great Barrington lot which has been soundly debunked by most scientists.

But what do we do then? What is your alternative solution? If we just let it run riot (especially this more infectious strain), the economy would still suffer due to mass absences from work, people wouldn't go out to shops and restaurants out of fear anyway, hospitals overun, unable to give emergency care ect. It wouldn't just be sunshine and rainbows.

Not saying I agree with 100% lockdown but I don't think the alternative would be great either. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't

I don’t think people would stop doing things out of fear anymore . That’s the point.

I completely agree @PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit. Was speaking to my Dad last night who hasn’t seen anyone since March, he had lung cancer two years ago and now only has 1/3 of one lung and COPD so his chances of surviving covid are low. Yet even he thinks we have gone too far and that the world has gone mad.

I wouldn’t want to lose him to Covid or any other illness but as a person in his mid 70s he’s insistent that he should be able to make up his own mind about what he does and who he sees. I am pleased he’s decided not to come for Christmas but he fully expected to be given the option, which he was.

I think the lock down vs free for all debate is a totally false dichotomy. We should help and allow the vulnerable to shield, I disagree with the ‘it’s too hard’ argument. I may not know how to do it and even if it would be massively complex that does not equal it being impossible. With the correct amount of political will and money everything is possible. See multiple approved vaccines.

Whether you believe the government response has been too weak or too strict so far I personally believe it’s really important to expect a long term plan for managing this and any future novel viruses that does not result in cycles of economic crisis and the removal of civil liberties.

But you're missing the point. The lockdowns are primarily not about the deaths, they're about being able to deal with the number of hospital patients

Well if there are going to be the same number of deaths then why total the economy as well.

What happens to those same cancer patients you talk about when there are zero beds and routine care including cancer treatment is cancelled to deal with A&E cases

Not to mention the fact that those people with cancer you talk about are the ones that are most likely to die from catching COVID so how does letting it run through society help them

I can tell you now that people with cancer generally do not want COVID running free because it's an even worse situation for them

I live with one such cancer patient. He couldn’t access treatment even before Covid. I don’t think you realise how little the NHS actually does for Cancer patients or any patient (unless it is Covid related)

We had to spend our life savings to get the treatment for dp. He wouldn’t have been in the position of having a terminal diagnosis if the NHS had actually done something when he went in the first place or at anytime over the subsequent 6 months)
It isn’t true that if you have cancer you going to die if you get Covid. (Dp has no spleen and hardly suffered when he got Covid)

Dp and most everyone I know couldn’t give a shit about Covid

More people are worried about losing the roof over their heads rather than some illness that for the most part they will recover from in a week

To those who say people can't access treatment because of lock down. Won't that still be the case if we don't lock down because more people will require hospital treatment?

[quote MummaBear4321]@hamstersarse I completely agree funny enough. I have two pre school kids and I cant even begin to think about what they are missing out on developmentally from not seeing anyone bar me or DH. However, with my comment I took education in the traditional sense, which can be salvaged. To fix social and development issues they need to open up to family and friends again, not just schools staying open, as preschool kids need socialising as much as 7 year olds. I feel the focus has been all on school, and every human under the age of 4 just has been forgotten. [/quote]
Interesting you should say this about the under 4's.

In the same conversation with my mum I spoke of above, she was telling me that a friend of hers had had a grandchild born at the beginning of lockdown. This poor child has had multiple serious chest infections and the doctors think it is because he hasn't had a chance to mix with other babies, swap low levels of pathogens and build up his immune system in the first year of life.

So this is likely to affect him for years to come as acquired immunity is shaped in your childhood.